The Talga Bar
- Thread starter cosors
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WheresTheMonkey
Regular
Still nothing other than that critical pond decision
Mark- och miljööverdomstolens avgöranden
Här hittar du länkar till publicerade avgöranden från Mark- och miljööverdomstolen. De avgöranden som anses ha en särskild betydelse som vägledning vid bedömning av likartade frågor i framtiden läggs in i Sveriges Domstolars databas för vägledande avgöranden.
And dont forget this from the announcement 8 May 2023................
The Court of Appeal will assess the merits of any submissions made by the Extended Deadline and is expected to determine whether to reject or grant any party with leave to appeal on 14 June 2023.
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Slymeat
Move on, nothing to see.
So what was the decision with the pond? Did the tadpoles win?
But then, I suppose a ruling on the pond needed to be timely as if they delayed, the tadpoles would turn into frogs and hop away. As opposed to these obvious delay tactics on a critical resource that might just give Sweden that team player assertion that NATO, and Europe, might be looking for.
I notice that Vulcan announced today that it is a huge step closer to giving Europe its first Lithium mine - and zero carbon emissions at that. Isn’t it about time some European Graphite joined the party!
Maybe Europe isn’t serious enough about assuring its own local supply chains. Self-sufficiency will run away from it if it isn‘t careful. And dependence on other nations can’t be depended upon.
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cosors
👀
a deep breath... and who is not interested in an unpopular opinion better ignore this, it contains nothing new for you.
The issue of the lack of electricity is now widely covered by the press. Otherwise, I can't find anything new in our matter.
All just my opinion.
I think that is all the European Commission can do. The EU Commission is the wrong target I think. The only ones to blame are these two groups which I will not name so that no one can accuse me of bashing. The European Commission cannot decide over the sovereign individual states. A look at Hungary or Poland shows how difficult it is to preserve the European common claims. If it is generally about us Europeans who misjudge the situation and urgency and what needs to be done, I agree. The individual states of the EU are governed sovereignly. And no party wants to mess with its voters. Climate protection has been the absolutely dominant issue for years. So when people demonstrate for more climate protection the ruling parties have to take it seriously in order not to lose these voters. I will not debate here whether this makes sense or not. So the court in Umea has to deal with the two united groups that stand up for more environmental protection and their human rights. And these two groups have a different view of climate protection and the economy, i.e. securing raw materials. The European Commission has taken a very clear position here and is doing what it can. Most of the others don't dare to address the problem clearly because everyone who questions the motives of this popular movement makes himself unpopular. Here in Germany this discrepancy between what is being fought for and the projected outcome is reflected in the fact that the right-wing party is stronger here than ever before. Whether they want to believe it or not. In Sweden this new government can only govern with the acquiescence of the right. And they haven't even advertised themselves with their own proposals and policies. They simply profit quietly from all the contradictions. That they themselves have no solution is not of interest to them. The fact that they are a disaster from my point of view doesn't matter either. It is simply the frustration that condenses and gives them approval. In my opinion the European Commission is not to blame, but those who shout loudly and demand their own rights above the common good, whether it makes sense or not.
Without knowing anything about their progress, as far as Vulcan is concerned I stand by my assessment from years ago. They will meet massive resistance. I already have an inkling of what is coming for Vulcan in my estimation. We have far more professional environmental associations here with far greater resources than in Sweden. They tend to be associations that are highly professionalized in their weaponry. They sue against everything that is possible. I do not mention any names here so that nobody can feel touched. And the resources do not go out like in Sweden. The goal today, as it was then with the movement against nuclear power, is to drive up the costs. Only in one city Berlin there are more than 2000 cases in court and that only from one activist group. Many see them, however, only as harmless young people who draw attention to the problems that the others have caused and others have to sove. But this here is not about the activists, but about the environmental groups who see their means in suing, here as in Sweden. And Vulcan or Talga are not Tesla. In retrospect, Musk would certainly have decided differently not to come to Germany, to the delight of these associations.
But they are not the only ones. I've once read through the regional policy statements from the various parties and mayors patiently conscientious as I did in our case/region. They are united against whether conservative or green, not in our region. That was the reason why I kept my fingers out of it. I had them for a few cents SP in a game depot.
In Strasbourg, France, very close to Vulcan, there is a geothermal power plant that has to be shut down regularly because of earthquakes. Maybe this can be regulated differently, but the fear remains and that is also used by the politicians. If Vulcan can start full production in thee to five years I would be absolutely surprised, because legal proceedings take a long time. They will find reasons to complain about the ramp-up of production from the experimental stage. Even if our government and then the state parliament should speak out in favor of it, it ends up in regional politics and countless individual interests that will first sue and then object. Do what you want it is perhaps positive but please not here. And I'm afraid Vulcan will face masses of them. Vulcan is not the only one who are planning to do this. Local companies have the same interest and they have the advantage of a little more support from politics and because shares and money are not so much in the foreground in the media. You have to understand that the startup culture here is completely different from yours. Startups here tend to finance themselves through private capital outside the stock market. It is almost unthinkable that a company like Vulcan has a market capitalization of €400m, or like Talga of €300, and that without any revenue. I have already followed it in the media how Vulcan is critically eyed and rather perceived as a stock company that serves to make the shareholders rich. That this is nonsense is clear to us but not to the general society. Germans are more used to building up their companies over generations before they are worth 400M.
Once briefly googled and I find the analogous group to ours: Citizens' initiative against deep geothermal energy in the Upper Rhine Graben
If you like, I'll provide you with statements from the local press in a quick search that I'm sure no one at HC wants to read.
But back to the topic. The Environmental Protection Association has made another inventory of endangered species in Nunasvaara from June 06 to 11. I have no idea if this has any influence on the delay, but I can imagine it. In our specific case: nobody who stands up for environmental protection or for the rights of people should look for Talgas problems somewhere else than in their own ranks among people of similar mindset. Opinions differ widely on how best to protect the climate. Demanding more environmental protection is cleaner in the media and more popular with young people than really acting and starting with the raw materials. The EU Commission acts more responsibly than most individual states or associations when it comes to climate protection because they have more focus on the community and the responsibility on the planet than on individual things. The European Commission is now acting against that its well-intentioned environmental laws are now being misused in the wrong sense and active climate protection is being slowed down or even stopped everywhere in the EU, see for example Natura2000 or Slovenia with lithium or now Portugal with lithium. In Germany the same will happen, but here it is more about the fear of earthquakes or other things. I know that this is unpleasant for many. I know this discrepancy very well from my close circle. They do it in such a way that they simply point mostly at the others who made bad policies before and point out that the associations and young people only draw attention to it. To generate a concrete package of actions to solve the problem or even just ideas for a solution, that should do others. Demonstrating for climate protection can never do any harm. Blame the other politics, the industry, capitalism. That this is the big part of the solution does not want to be seen because it does not correspond to the own clean image. The others are always to blame and never the ones themselves. Of course we owe a lot to this movement, but the momentum and self-purpose and individual self-interests and opinions are more and more contrary to the whole or the common goal.
I know that you mean it differently with the EU. I know you mean well. I just wanted to point out that everyone has it in their own hands and the Commission is doing its job responsibly in this matter. Yesterday, a big issue popped up where there have been warnings for a long time in Sweden. There is not enough electricity for the new green industry. It only popped up in the media because the companies concerned called it out, including Talga, but SSB of course was at the forefront because they consume enormous amounts of electricity. The Swedish government has known that for a long time. Also the Sami know that, who are fighting right now against the next 373 planned wind turbines. The environmental protection associations and all others who do not want to have wind turbines or power lines near them also know that. For years they have been fighting against that the power line for the too little electricity should not run through their region. We know this very well from Germany, too. Each municipality has its individual reason why not there, whether a biotope, water protection area, nature reserve, water vein or species worth protecting. The approval process for power lines in Sweden takes an average of 11 years. The antis simply take themselves out of the equation. Or some others do not need the green transition. That is positive and is absolutely demanded as long as it remains in a general spongy cloud and it does not become concrete for themselves. Many people don't want to see this and I make myself unpopular with them, but I see it as a young movement that has opened all our eyes, but at the same time has established something that is absolutely harmful for the practical realization of more climate protection, the pointing at the others. Let the others solve what we have been demanding for a long time. The view into the detail does not interest thereby. It does not interest that the one are likewise part of the community and should make their contribution. It does not interest the other group the weighing in the detail between micro and macro view; micrometer-sized fungi that are widely distributed or global climate change. The only point for them is that nature must not suffer from the practical implementation of more climate protection. How this should be possible is not of interest. That should be solved by others or by the politicians who were elected for it. And to be an activist does not mean to contribute practically. Thus the own vest remains always clean in their own view.
Insertion: In the squatted house near me, the same people are heating with coal briquettes who are demonstrating against climate change and, above all, against coal mining in the region. Or a new heating law should be passed here. And the party that is calling on everyone to finally act and has drafted this law has not managed in three and a half years to implement its own demand at its party headquarter. But all the others should, so their demand. Again, the others. As it once established a girl to point at the others and to take out herself.
Actually I did not want to write anything more about this. But as I said, everybody has to start with himself to cope with this enormous challenge. And all I can do in this case is to make people with that attitude aware of it or try to rethink their own view. Here in the bar, that's not a problem. Often I have thought about clarifying some untruths in that Facebook group. I leave it definitely because it makes no sense. They want to see it in that way, as there are others who deny climate change. That's how it is in a pluralistic society with many many individual rights that need to be protected. China does not know this problem. But that doesn't matter to them because they don't have to live there.
We will just have to be patient and watch how climate protection and thus environmental protection will be practiced. I see it in such a way that the court has a very heavy job since they must consider evenly all positions of their pluralistic society. That is their job and mission. Moreover, they still act on the old laws that put the environmental aspects far above the social or global aspects. Work is underway to change this imbalance. But it is not yet so far. We are in this transition. The authorities involved, such as SGU and Bergsstaten and the court in Umea have pointed out that they are over their capacity. The problem with the lawsuits as a weapon for environmental protection I mentioned above. And the plan of a small party in Sweden is fully successful with it, blockade by expenditure I impute to them. All I want to do is to address the challenges clearly. I myself am only a small light and can almost only take care of my environment, which is challenging enough.
Be patient. You all contribute more to climate protection through your investment than many or most of the people around you. By the way, I think it's great that Talga has made it clear that until now they have been living off the shareholders money to advance this brilliant cause for climate protection. You all contribute to it. And I see it that way: It is not frustrating how the SP runs sideways but we are part of a great thing! You can say that in your mind to every activist or demonstrator around you or those in Sweden or who sticks here to the road and causes costs and this money is then missing for climate protection invests as well as the courts are overloaded. In mind I could even go so far as to tell the Sami in my mind that we investors in this green tec are actively working to preserve their country. There is only one planet on which we live. I for one am proud to be patient a part of this and put the SP more in the background. I don't know about you, but for me it's not just about the money anymore and this was and still is the right way to actively protect the climate and, at the same time, a huge study of social change for me. But I also have the advantage to many Australians of you that it's not about my pension like with your super.
So, my sermon comes to an end here. Amen Talgarians
Now I need a cold beer here it is quite warm.
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Slymeat
Move on, nothing to see.
Wow @cosors, what a rant and a half that was, and thank you for sharing your informed, local insight. Looking from the other side of the world it seems incredulous to me that Swedish courts don’t appear to be considering global, or even European, issues, but as I said, you have opened my somewhat blinkered eyes.
Your analogy of the lunacy of squatters burning coal for heating, whilst also protesting local coal mining, is superb. That alone covers off so many points. Well said!
Your analogy of the lunacy of squatters burning coal for heating, whilst also protesting local coal mining, is superb. That alone covers off so many points. Well said!
cosors
👀
The fact that there is a preponderance of local environmental aspects in the assessment of the court is not their fault but the fault of the small party that has built up this system about which the EU complains. But the last and the new Swedish government is aware of the problem and has therefore launched this offensive for improvement. Just be patient. But we are still running under the old scheme. And those who caused it have nothing to say today and have been voted out.
It's true about the coal bricketts. I had visited the house myself for 'conferences'. Not everything is absurd and there are really great committed people among them but those are felt to be 1:1,000. The rest just want to live in their bubble and see what they want to see.
And as for the absurdities, I have many more examples that show these contradictions, also in my close environment as mentioned. Concrete example what concerns us: The anti-miners celebrate the NV project and anodes from lignin thus wood from domestic forests. Thus, the mining of Talga is unnecessary, proven. On the other hand the logging should be stopped right now - nature is being ruined. They just always turn it the way it fits into their picture.
Just demonstrate and go to vote and everything is done. Raw materials and industry - all exploitative capitalist madness. Shares - that cannot be a reasonable enterprise or company. Demonstrating with the children and grandchildren on Friday is the only way. Haleluja.
So enough ranting. I am absolutely sure that we are all doing exactly the right thing here, which is so important.
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cosors
👀
Crude theory.
I can't find anywhere a date of the court in which they announce when they will give their verdict on the appeals. I can only find general statements about how the process will work. I therefore assume that Talga has determined the dates or the date itself and then announced 14 June in their update.
There is such a general description in the judgment at the very end. I realise that it is a different process but maybe the deadlines are the same.
"Written appeal within 3 weeks
Your appeal must reach the court within 3 weeks of the date of the judgment. You will find the deadline for filing the appeal on the last page of the judgment.
Appeal after the other party has filed an appeal
If one party has filed an appeal in time, the other party can also appeal, even if the time limit has already expired. This is called a cross-appeal.
A party may file a cross-appeal within a further week after the expiry of the time limit for appeal. A cross-appeal must therefore be filed within 4 weeks of the date of the judgment."
https://thestockexchange.com.au/threads/permits.4987/post-281414
original, look for the link at the end
https://thestockexchange.com.au/threads/permits.4987/post-280045
I know that this is far-fetched. The deadline was 23 May. So the processing time starts on 24 May. Three weeks processing time and we come exactly to 14 June.
If it was not three but four weeks we would end up with 21 June.
Maybe we expected the result a week too early?
It could be total nonsense on my part, so I came with it better here to the counter.
Cheers and have a nice weekend!
Nikolaus is coming tomorrow!
The next day:
Oh, no. I just saw it in the calendar. You'll have to wait another week. Is that bad for you, my little darling?
I can't find anywhere a date of the court in which they announce when they will give their verdict on the appeals. I can only find general statements about how the process will work. I therefore assume that Talga has determined the dates or the date itself and then announced 14 June in their update.
There is such a general description in the judgment at the very end. I realise that it is a different process but maybe the deadlines are the same.
"Written appeal within 3 weeks
Your appeal must reach the court within 3 weeks of the date of the judgment. You will find the deadline for filing the appeal on the last page of the judgment.
Appeal after the other party has filed an appeal
If one party has filed an appeal in time, the other party can also appeal, even if the time limit has already expired. This is called a cross-appeal.
A party may file a cross-appeal within a further week after the expiry of the time limit for appeal. A cross-appeal must therefore be filed within 4 weeks of the date of the judgment."
https://thestockexchange.com.au/threads/permits.4987/post-281414
original, look for the link at the end
https://thestockexchange.com.au/threads/permits.4987/post-280045
I know that this is far-fetched. The deadline was 23 May. So the processing time starts on 24 May. Three weeks processing time and we come exactly to 14 June.
If it was not three but four weeks we would end up with 21 June.
Maybe we expected the result a week too early?
It could be total nonsense on my part, so I came with it better here to the counter.
Cheers and have a nice weekend!
Nikolaus is coming tomorrow!
The next day:
Oh, no. I just saw it in the calendar. You'll have to wait another week. Is that bad for you, my little darling?
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Semmel
Regular
That actually sounds very reasonable.
Ok, thinking about it. We had a decision on April 5th. plus 3 weeks was until April 26th. By that day an extension of deadline for lodging appeals until June 7th was granted. June 7 plus 1 week makes June 14th until Talga could lodge a cross appeal according to the statement you found. But no where does it say until when the court would decide on the lodged appeals. That came, as you said, from a Talga announcement. But Talgas statement was very clear and I cant imagine they invented that. They for sure got a notice from the court with the 14th as a statement. We are all waiting for the court. Happy weekend!
Affenhorst
Regular
cosors
👀
I got the date 23 May from the or one of the opponents' lawyers. It was about the deadline for filing the proxies of the landowners.
If it's announced on 21 June, I'll laugh my head off.
WheresTheMonkey
Regular
Whatever it is the wait continues 
Anyway have a great weekend everyone.
Sitting at home with 2 Maltese puppies a bottle of McLaren Vale Shiraz watching the Ashes ( ok EU people it’s Australia v England in Cricket playing in England)
The game goes for 5 days ( that’s why Mrs Monkey is out with her girlfriends tonight)
Australians are brought up on this game
It teaches you patience
Exactly what is now really required
Anyway have a great weekend everyone.
Sitting at home with 2 Maltese puppies a bottle of McLaren Vale Shiraz watching the Ashes ( ok EU people it’s Australia v England in Cricket playing in England)
The game goes for 5 days ( that’s why Mrs Monkey is out with her girlfriends tonight)
Australians are brought up on this game
It teaches you patience
Exactly what is now really required
teilenswert
Regular
Whatever it is the wait continues
Anyway have a great weekend everyone.
Sitting at home with 2 Maltese puppies a bottle of McLaren Vale Shiraz watching the Ashes ( ok EU people it’s Australia v England in Cricket playing in England)
The game goes for 5 days ( that’s why Mrs Monkey is out with her girlfriends tonight)
Australians are brought up on this game
It teaches you patience
Exactly what is now really required
That brings back old memories for me. When I was in Australia for the first and only time over 10 years ago, I thought of watching a cricket match in the huge arena in Melbourne. It must have been an extraordinarily unimportant match, because of the 100,024 seats at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, an estimated 100,000 were unoccupied. Much to my displeasure, the match was interrupted at some point and it was announced that it would continue the next day. I no longer understood not only the game but also the world, and came to the conclusion that cricket is not my sport. I'd rather watch football, basketball, tennis, handball, curling or for my sake indoor hammam.
Happy weekend everyone and fingers crossed for positive news next week!
WheresTheMonkey
Regular
WheresTheMonkey
Regular
Yes there are plenty of rules. But very simple really
But after football it would be possibly the highest tv ratings sport including most participation
India + Pakistan+Bangladeshi + South Africa + West Indies
India has a larger population than China now
Then OZ,NZ,ENG blah blah
That’s a lot of people
cosors
👀
I think I'm about to pick up also a McLaren Vale Shiraz (Yangarra Shiraz 2018) from my Aussie store!Whatever it is the wait continues
Anyway have a great weekend everyone.
Sitting at home with 2 Maltese puppies a bottle of McLaren Vale Shiraz watching the Ashes ( ok EU people it’s Australia v England in Cricket playing in England)
The game goes for 5 days ( that’s why Mrs Monkey is out with her girlfriends tonight)
Australians are brought up on this game
It teaches you patience
Exactly what is now really required
Good idea
cosors
👀
For me, the most incredibly boring sport is tennis. But that may also be due to my childhood imprinting. My grandmother was a tennis fanatic in, TV. When tennis was on and that was always if possible the rest of the world was turned off.
ping pong
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ping pong
pong ping
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ping pong
ping pong
uuuh
ahhh
ping pong
ping
pong
ping pong
ping pong
ping pong
ping pong
uuuh ahhh
ping
pong
ping
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ping pong
pong ping
ping
pong
WheresTheMonkey
Regular
I tend to go towards McLaren Vale shiraz. I find the quality is fairly consistent. I go for $AUD30 then special occasions ( like Friday to Sunday
) it’s AUD$35 Our wines are consistently very heavy here, I am buying more French these days . Trying to get used to it. Mrs Monkey and I are in Paris and Milan in October.
2025 is Berlin
WheresTheMonkey
Regular
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