The Talga Bar

Vigdorian

Regular
I'd rather go to the bar with this.
Because of the current hearing and because the topic has been raised here in our group over the last few days I would like to express here my personal opinion and view on this specific topic for the last time. After that I will leave it alone because I have often gone into it and don't want to tire you out. It's just that this topic became part of my special personally task for me and our community a few years ago. We asked ourselves where the problems could be. Then I started to drill down into the situation on the ground. And one part was/is:

Perhaps the Sami have overdone it a bit with their uncompromising attitude. These Swedes who are also Sami want an ecological Sweden, who doesn't?!
Nevertheless, they are part of the Swedish community and can use everything this country has to offer just like the other Swedes. Moreover, they have justified and perfectly understandable rights that the other Swedes do not have. My point is that no one wants to undermine their status, no one wants to take anything away from them, but they are also part of the ecological community of the Swedish nation, which is trying much harder to manage the green transition than other countries. This includes, for example, green energy and last year there was the remarkable news that in 2021 78% of all applications for wind power projects were rejected. No one wants them there, and no one wants power lines. So they are not alone. But they may have made a part of the rest of Swedish society a little tired of not understanding this with their argumentation. Hardliners argue that this green transformation is not necessary because they are fine with what they have and and with where the footprint is. They don't need new industry eco-projects like wind power on ~their land. These are only for the energy hunger of the others. But they are part of these others and use all the advantages that these others - at the same time their own community - offers them. To speak of eco-colonialism and genocide in relation to wind power is unfair and makes others tired of listening, I imagine. Everyone but lunatics understands their role in society and that is has to be protected. But perhaps less understands their uncompromising argumentation or stance.
Do they want to be part of the Swedish people or just be for themselves? Some may find cherry picking unfair. And it's not just about products that they use like everyone else in their country.
I think it's absolutely right to better protect the indigenous people of this world, everywhere. Above all, we Europeans owe this to the indigenous people. Canada is very advanced here. I heard from you Aussis that on the last holiday, Australia Day, there was no street parade out of respect for your problematic history and respect for the role of the indigenous people. And that some companies have offered their employees to go to work on the AD in exchange for another day off.
But here, how is the Swedish community going to get it right when one part isn't willing to compromise? Compromises are part of every community, including the own family. I think that might also blunt some people (in key positions).

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I would also like to note that they represent the red marking of the area for the resource of national interest in such a way that it blocks the way to Vittangi like a bulwark that cannot be passed. I can imagine that they do this to better illustrate the drama of the situation for them. That may have its effect on like-minded people. But also in a rational court? They pretend that Talga would build a wall around their area from one river to the other. It's about trade-offs and compromises.
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But there is also another gap in the logic. All countries are just looking at how they can reduce their emissions figures, a simple calculation. Everything that takes place elsewhere is not included in your own account. I'm also thinking about compensatory payments. If I'm a buyer and the emissions from production are incurred elsewhere then I am a ~victim myself, although I'm a consumer. So far, this hasn't been taken into account in the debates.
So reducing global emissions with a project would not reduce emissions in the country itself because it has to be built. Every factory has a footprint and that is big. In this logic and calculation, it doesn't matter how much emissions this factory saves worldwide. First of all it is more. At least that's how some nature conservation organizations interpret it.
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I'm done and need spam and eggs first.
Amen !

I’ll just add my two cents regarding Australia Day which is that we have a very loud minority and a labor government (with the greens party influence ) that wants to appease everyone but let’s not underestimate the silent majority who are proud of Australia Day and do not associate it with invasion day from 240 years ago but unfortunately the media always dramatizes things and every December - February in the absence of real news - the story become the default option which quite frankly is getting old.

We also have an upcoming referendum called ‘the voice’ and we’ll see whether Australia agrees that indigenous Australians should have a much larger representation than their proportionate population in government.
I’m not sure why there is a notion that advanced civilizations (colonialism) should be ashamed of the achievements/progress/inventions made. We should be able to celebrate our past (indigenous) and our present but I don’t believe that as an Australian anyone should be given preference over another. Not to sound cynical but the conversation needs to change. There should be no difference between my kids and indigenous kids with regards to their voice and their rights and shaping the direction of the country.

Feel free to take the above and apply it to the Sami people which make up 0.22%
 
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cosors

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Amen !

I’ll just add my two cents regarding Australia Day which is that we have a very loud minority and a labor government (with the greens party influence ) that wants to appease everyone but let’s not underestimate the silent majority who are proud of Australia Day and do not associate it with invasion day from 240 years ago but unfortunately the media always dramatizes things and every December - February in the absence of real news - the story become the default option which quite frankly is getting old.

We also have an upcoming referendum called ‘the voice’ and we’ll see whether Australia agrees that indigenous Australians should have a much larger representation than their proportionate population in government.
I’m not sure why there is a notion that advanced civilizations (colonialism) should be ashamed of the achievements/progress/inventions made. We should be able to celebrate our past (indigenous) and our present but I don’t believe that as an Australian anyone should be given preference over another. Not to sound cynical but the conversation needs to change. There should be no difference between my kids and indigenous kids with regards to their voice and their rights and shaping the direction of the country.

Feel free to take the above and apply it to the Sami people which make up 0.22%
It is a difficult subject. Of course, the news has been interpreted many times up to my ear. I heard it on the biggest radio station here, a state radio station. We Germans are particularly sensitive because of our past. When I heard there about your AD and the background, I wavered between that on the one hand they are right and the beginning of colonization and displacement for them is not to celebrate. And on the other hand I thought that after such a long time everybody should better look into the future and celebrate together. But I don't know enough about your culture and history, so I wanted to keep it neutral. I have no idea about the political background. You rightly bring it up, everyone should be treated equally. But because of history, not all people can have the exact same rights. It is a difficult subject. The world has become too small.
 
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But I don't know enough about your culture and history, so I wanted to keep it neutral. I have no idea about the political background. You rightly bring it up, everyone should be treated equally. But because of history, not all people can have the exact same rights. It is a difficult subject. The world has become too small.

Well let me let you in on a very little known fact about history that could have had an extraordinary impact upon European history.

On 18 January 1788 what is known today as the First Fleet of 11 ships arrived in Botany Bay just south of Sydney Harbour under the command of Captain Arthur Phillip. The Bay was not a great anchorage and an exploratory party was sent north a few kilometres to Sydney Harbour of which Phillip wrote "the finest harbour in the world, in which a thousand sail of the line may ride in the most perfect security ...".

On the 24th of January the First Fleet was startled by the arrival into Botany Bay of two French ships commandered by Jean Francois de La Perouse . The French were on a scientific expedition and were there to take on fresh water and anything they could scrounge from the countryside. Cordial relations existed between the French and English at the time and mail was even given to the English to be given to the French Ambassador in London on the return of any of the English ships which was planned. The British moved their fleet to Sydney Harbour and landed ashore at what is now known as Sydney Cove on 26 January 1788 whilst the French remained in the Bay

As an interesting aside there was a French convict on the First Fleet who escaped his confines at Sydney Cove and managed to gain passage on the French ships. Ultimately an unfortunate escape for him

La Perouse sailed out of Botany Bay in March 1788 and neither he or his crew were ever seen by Europeans again. A number of missions have been made over the years to find out exactly what happened to him and his men and it appears both his ships were wrecked near Vanuatu. Some were killed by natives and it appears some survived a number of years and were almost rescued by a brutal English Captain called Edward Edwards who failed to investigate smoke signals years later.

So famous was La Perouse in France that on the morning of his execution Louis the Sixteenth is documented as asking "Any news from La Perouse ?"

So what is the European connection you ask ?

La Perouse set sail from Brest 1 August 1785. But during the preparation for the ill fated voyage he was taking applications from many Frenchmen keen for adventure with the French Navy. Skills such as mathematics and gunnery were keenly sought after.

One of those interested was a second lieutenant from Paris' military academy at the time, a 16 year old Corsican called Napoleon Bonaparte. He didn't make the final list

What might have been the shape of Europe today ?
 
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Semmel

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Heartwarming wtm. Let's have another drink to stories from history. I love these stories but have the tendency to forget everything history related within 5 seconds. The last name rings a bell though ..
 
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TentCity

Regular
Well let me let you in on a very little known fact about history that could have had an extraordinary impact upon European history.

On 18 January 1788 what is known today as the First Fleet of 11 ships arrived in Botany Bay just south of Sydney Harbour under the command of Captain Arthur Phillip. The Bay was not a great anchorage and an exploratory party was sent north a few kilometres to Sydney Harbour of which Phillip wrote "the finest harbour in the world, in which a thousand sail of the line may ride in the most perfect security ...".

On the 24th of January the First Fleet was startled by the arrival into Botany Bay of two French ships commandered by Jean Francois de La Perouse . The French were on a scientific expedition and were there to take on fresh water and anything they could scrounge from the countryside. Cordial relations existed between the French and English at the time and mail was even given to the English to be given to the French Ambassador in London on the return of any of the English ships which was planned. The British moved their fleet to Sydney Harbour and landed ashore at what is now known as Sydney Cove on 26 January 1788 whilst the French remained in the Bay

As an interesting aside there was a French convict on the First Fleet who escaped his confines at Sydney Cove and managed to gain passage on the French ships. Ultimately an unfortunate escape for him

La Perouse sailed out of Botany Bay in March 1788 and neither he or his crew were ever seen by Europeans again. A number of missions have been made over the years to find out exactly what happened to him and his men and it appears both his ships were wrecked near Vanuatu. Some were killed by natives and it appears some survived a number of years and were almost rescued by a brutal English Captain called Edward Edwards who failed to investigate smoke signals years later.

So famous was La Perouse in France that on the morning of his execution Louis the Sixteenth is documented as asking "Any news from La Perouse ?"

So what is the European connection you ask ?

La Perouse set sail from Brest 1 August 1785. But during the preparation for the ill fated voyage he was taking applications from many Frenchmen keen for adventure with the French Navy. Skills such as mathematics and gunnery were keenly sought after.

One of those interested was a second lieutenant from Paris' military academy at the time, a 16 year old Corsican called Napoleon Bonaparte. He didn't make the final list

What might have been the shape of Europe today ?
Wow - very interesting WTM. Very much a sliding doors moment for the world!
 
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cosors

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Well let me let you in on a very little known fact about history that could have had an extraordinary impact upon European history.

On 18 January 1788 what is known today as the First Fleet of 11 ships arrived in Botany Bay just south of Sydney Harbour under the command of Captain Arthur Phillip. The Bay was not a great anchorage and an exploratory party was sent north a few kilometres to Sydney Harbour of which Phillip wrote "the finest harbour in the world, in which a thousand sail of the line may ride in the most perfect security ...".

On the 24th of January the First Fleet was startled by the arrival into Botany Bay of two French ships commandered by Jean Francois de La Perouse . The French were on a scientific expedition and were there to take on fresh water and anything they could scrounge from the countryside. Cordial relations existed between the French and English at the time and mail was even given to the English to be given to the French Ambassador in London on the return of any of the English ships which was planned. The British moved their fleet to Sydney Harbour and landed ashore at what is now known as Sydney Cove on 26 January 1788 whilst the French remained in the Bay

As an interesting aside there was a French convict on the First Fleet who escaped his confines at Sydney Cove and managed to gain passage on the French ships. Ultimately an unfortunate escape for him

La Perouse sailed out of Botany Bay in March 1788 and neither he or his crew were ever seen by Europeans again. A number of missions have been made over the years to find out exactly what happened to him and his men and it appears both his ships were wrecked near Vanuatu. Some were killed by natives and it appears some survived a number of years and were almost rescued by a brutal English Captain called Edward Edwards who failed to investigate smoke signals years later.

So famous was La Perouse in France that on the morning of his execution Louis the Sixteenth is documented as asking "Any news from La Perouse ?"

So what is the European connection you ask ?

La Perouse set sail from Brest 1 August 1785. But during the preparation for the ill fated voyage he was taking applications from many Frenchmen keen for adventure with the French Navy. Skills such as mathematics and gunnery were keenly sought after.

One of those interested was a second lieutenant from Paris' military academy at the time, a 16 year old Corsican called Napoleon Bonaparte. He didn't make the final list

What might have been the shape of Europe today ?
WoW this is new for me!
I'm excited that you're taking the time to tell us this history lesson. I won't forget this and will probably look into it more.
Yes, what would the world look like today. A lot of suffering would have been spared if he had disappeared from the world stage, even if some French people might cry out now, if there are any reading along here. Sometimes I think of such a ship and the despots of this world. Why not a world economic summit of these oppressors on a big ship. Anyway.
After all, it started at your AD. At that time it was normal to discover the world and to subdue it. In the meantime enough time has passed that mankind could reflect the consequences and has learned for the most part. Maybe you can celebrate this new consciousness on top on this day. It would reconcile both sides. Thank you again I appreciate it very much!
 
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These are great notes for the writing project I'm working on. Naval history has been a deep dive since last year. Botany Bay reminded me of the Irish song "Fields of Athenry". Song about living through the hardships of the potato famine and how many Irish were sent to the prison colony. Hits pretty deep for those of us with Irish background. Tough to try to write into a story without it being sad but it's worth the meaning that comes with it.

I'll take a straight shot of Jameson and a pint of Guiness if ya got any there barkeep. Got myself into a bit of a bardy mood
 
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cosors

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These are great notes for the writing project I'm working on. Naval history has been a deep dive since last year. Botany Bay reminded me of the Irish song "Fields of Athenry". Song about living through the hardships of the potato famine and how many Irish were sent to the prison colony. Hits pretty deep for those of us with Irish background. Tough to try to write into a story without it being sad but it's worth the meaning that comes with it.

I'll take a straight shot of Jameson and a pint of Guiness if ya got any there barkeep. Got myself into a bit of a bardy mood
The suffering must not be forgotten but time heals some wounds. Even though I know about the great famine, I was thinking mostly about the U.S. until just now. We really didn't learn much about Australia. I will look into both topics, it helps to understand. Just read about this:

English ruthlessness
The English landlords on the island fared better than the Irish farmers. Not only did they have sufficient resources to survive the crop failures, they also enjoyed the special protection of the English government and legal system. According to English tenancy law, the landlords could not only give their tenant farmers the land at any time. They were also allowed to tear down their homesteads to prevent them from returning.

They made extensive use of this, with the result that the potato plague deprived large parts of the Irish rural population of their livelihoods, but brought the English landowners unimagined land gains - land of a fertility that is found nowhere else in the British Isles.

Help could have come from the English government. But the opposite happened. The starving Irish watched as the few potatoes were shipped to England by English landowners. Worse still, even the grain harvest, which was normal and could have provided a basic food source, was exported, for the penniless Irish had no money to buy bread and flour.

It was the era of economic liberalism, and many educated citizens in far-off London took the view that such a famine could regulate Ireland's threatened overpopulation. Under no circumstances should prices and thus markets be jeopardized by subsidized food.

Others saw the famine as a welcome opportunity to discipline what the English saw as an unruly Irish population. Whatever was left out in favor of the Irish: It suited the English bourgeoisie, for whom booming industry and colonial power politics promised rosy times.

It is true that Ireland was part of the English crown and in no way comparable to the distant colonies. But English politicians did not assume that the Irish were loyal to English rule. The Irish could only emerge from the ongoing potato crisis weakened and the English stronger.


I am glad that people for the most part learn and develop beyond their own ruthless ego.
 
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Diogenese

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WoW this is new for me!
I'm excited that you're taking the time to tell us this history lesson. I won't forget this and will probably look into it more.
Yes, what would the world look like today. A lot of suffering would have been spared if he had disappeared from the world stage, even if some French people might cry out now, if there are any reading along here. Sometimes I think of such a ship and the despots of this world. Why not a world economic summit of these oppressors on a big ship. Anyway.
After all, it started at your AD. At that time it was normal to discover the world and to subdue it. In the meantime enough time has passed that mankind could reflect the consequences and has learned for the most part. Maybe you can celebrate this new consciousness on top on this day. It would reconcile both sides. Thank you again I appreciate it very much!
Nowadays we would put him in the Golgafrincham Ark with the phone sanitizers.
 
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cosors

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I also didn't know that William Blight of the Bounty had anything to do with Sidney's history.
 
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Diogenese

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I also didn't know that William Blight of the Bounty had anything to do with Sidney's history.
He was a rum cove.
 
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These are great notes for the writing project I'm working on. Naval history has been a deep dive since last year. Botany Bay reminded me of the Irish song "Fields of Athenry". Song about living through the hardships of the potato famine and how many Irish were sent to the prison colony. Hits pretty deep for those of us with Irish background. Tough to try to write into a story without it being sad but it's worth the meaning that comes with it.

I'll take a straight shot of Jameson and a pint of Guiness if ya got any there barkeep. Got myself into a bit of a bardy mood
The story of Laperouse is a very interesting one indeed. Then of course Lieutenant James Cook (he never held the rank of Captain as he was given the higher rank of Post Captain in 1775). Reading his journals which are all online these days give a fascinating account of his voyages all across the South Pacific not just Australia and his various interactions with natives.

I find it quite amusing that he entered and anchored in Botany Bay which is quite a large open expanse of water without much storm shelter yet he saw Sydney Harbour and named it Port Jackson but did not enter it. He sailed right past it

It was 18 years later that Arthur Phillip entered it and was suitably astonished by the number of coves/inlets to provide storm shelter

It makes you wonder what these old adventurers in their wooden ships would make of our luxurious cruise ships these days
 
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Semmel

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The story of Laperouse is a very interesting one indeed. Then of course Lieutenant James Cook (he never held the rank of Captain as he was given the higher rank of Post Captain in 1775). Reading his journals which are all online these days give a fascinating account of his voyages all across the South Pacific not just Australia and his various interactions with natives.

I find it quite amusing that he entered and anchored in Botany Bay which is quite a large open expanse of water without much storm shelter yet he saw Sydney Harbour and named it Port Jackson but did not enter it. He sailed right past it

It was 18 years later that Arthur Phillip entered it and was suitably astonished by the number of coves/inlets to provide storm shelter

It makes you wonder what these old adventurers in their wooden ships would make of our luxurious cruise ships these days
I am sure they would look at them in disgust because it's not really sea going for them if there is a vanishing small risk of sinkage ;)
 
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cosors

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I think they would think it is an UFO and turn away in disgust. What else is there for a real man to do except to push buttons - meh.

SY A​

1675415011650.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_(Segelyacht)

That's better!
I am a fan of the Vendée Globe. One person, no help, do and fix everything yourself, no dock and nonstop once around the world. That is a huge challenge!
1675415296182.png



America's Cup - the ships do not even lie in the water
1675415481166.png
 
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cosors

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cosors

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I celebrated my one year anniversary here at TSE ~yesterday. Thanks zeeb0t for this super forum 🍾🥂
Think about maybe giving him a subscription or some money. He has earned it! Here is no TMH and their fund and a lot of advertising behind it.
 
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beserk

Regular
Botany Bay south of Sydney, where you will find Sydney International airport these days, was named after the Botanists aboard the Endeavour, Sir Joseph Banks and Dr Daniel Solander. Dr Solander was a Swedish disciple of the great Linnaeus but Daniel originally came from....Norrbotten. In fact his father was a clergyman from Ojebyn not far from Luleå. And there is a Solander museeum in Ojebyn. So you could combine minearology with Botany both with an Australian flair if you ever visit those parts of Sweden.
The round the world trip the Endeavour undertook between 1768 - 1771 under the leadership of Lieutenant Cook took three years and was a scientific expedition plus had the added benefit of claiming all of the East Coast of Australia and New Zealand for the British crown.
And if you are in London you could visit the Linnean society library in New Burlington House, Piccadilly, and have a look at the collection of original manuscripts and original botanical specimens from Terra Australis Incognita collected by Banks and Solander and preserved for posteriority.
 
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Tim

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On Hotcrapper there was a user named Zoulou, I wonder if they know of TSE?
Their contributions were always high quality, would be nice to hear from them again.
 
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cosors

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The EU has decided today on a general ICE ban. So 100% EVs.
 
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Affenhorst

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The EU has decided today on a general ICE ban. So 100% EVs.
Kinda cool, as it sends a message. By 2035 it would be useless, though, as almost nobody in their right mind would by an ICE car anymore by 2030 or even earlier.
 
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