TLG Discussion 2022

mpk1980

Member
Anyone know the current price of Graphite Anode coming from china to the european market?

I have the feeling that the time this drags on in the court might have an impact on our offtake agreements. We might not be able to charge above current rates from China. Thats why I am interested in knowing what the stuff currently sells for. Anyone has a hint?

Hi Semmel,

I think the prices coming into Europe is difficult to tell because as MT says most if not all contracts are kept private.
The following is from TLG's DFS which has a BM projected price of around $US14K/t, price stabilising after 20230, after some price volatility from 2025-2030.

The comforting factor for me is that we are totally integrated and cost competitive with China (production costs ÙS$3K/t). For me, as long as the 2030+ average basket price for our anode is north of US $6K i am ok. By then we should be at well over 400K+ annual production?

Look whats happening in the lithium sector....China is manipulating the lithium concentrate (hard-rock) price to unsustainable levels.... We only have to deal with the end customers....a case of take it or leave it.



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cosors

👀
Cosors sorry about the late reply. Lining up the ducks before shooting off to Luleå and Kiruna via Singapore, Istanbul, a first for me, and Copenhagen. My daughter has miraculously scored us tickets for Eurovision in Malmö across the Öresund. Will see if there will be extra security because of Israel competing in the Euro song contest 2024.

Yes begåvnings svaga in this context is close to dumbkopf...am I saying it right?

Hmmm untalented or talentless might be closer to the mark and yes Fokus is a magazine that I read on line.

Usually I find good, thought through, well argued, content in the articles in Fokus.

So thanks for the reading tips on the plane over to København.

Beserk
Did you enjoy Eurovision in Malmö?
Are you heading further north now?
 

Diogenese

Top 20
I have neither checked the author nor the page.

"Kiruna is doing the right thing
Editorial Mining companies are expected to pay for the wealth they extract from the ground through their employees' salaries. Which the municipality can tax. That model no longer works.

What's in it for us?

That's the question people living in the areas around the village of Vittangi in Norrbotten have been asking since it became known that the Australian mining company Talga is planning to open a coal mine in the Nunasvaara area. The area where Talga has been test drilling is upstream from Vittangi, a few kilometres from the mighty Torne River, one of Sweden's national rivers, which flows past there on its way to the Gulf of Bothnia. Here, Talga wants to open a giant open-cast mine, extracting 100 000 tonnes of graphite ore every year for 25 years. In return, the company promises to employ around 60 people.

The deal is this: mining companies pay nothing for what they extract in return for creating jobs on site. Despite the fact that the ore extracted from mines or quarries is gone from Sweden's interior forever, the companies do not have to pay for it. Whether it is the state-owned LKAB that picks it up, or an Australian company like in the Talga case. The mining companies are expected to pay for the wealth they extract from the ground through the wages of their employees. Which the municipality can tax.

This model no longer works.

Some of the highest paid civil servants are based in Stockholm. They pay no income tax in Kiruna.

One reason is that the tax the municipality can levy is a flat tax. Unlike the state tax, which is higher for high earners, all residents of the municipality have to pay the same amount per hundred kronor in municipal tax, regardless of how much they earn. This makes it difficult to raise taxes, as a tax increase inevitably hits the municipality's low-income earners hardest.

But that's not the only problem. Many of the people who work in the mine pay no income tax at all. No one had heard of "Fly in, fly out" when Kiruna was founded around the huge ore deposit in the Kiirunavaara mountain, which is now scraped and eroded beyond recognition. But today, municipalities estimate that a couple of thousand people commute to Kiruna by air. They pay taxes elsewhere, they literally fly away with the profits from ore mining. It is the same with LKAB's engineers, administrators and managers. Many of them no longer live in Kiruna, but elsewhere. The head office of Luossavaara-Kiirunavaara Aktiebolag, named after the mountain in Kiruna, is in Luleå, and some of the most highly paid officials are in the World Trade Centre on Kungsbron in Stockholm. They pay no income tax in Kiruna.

Other taxes, such as corporation tax and tax on dividends, are state taxes, they go directly to Stockholm, too.

In Kiruna, taxes are not enough. The municipality has debts of SEK 2.7 billion, partly because a large part of the town had to be moved to make way for mining.**

The chairman of Kiruna's municipal council draws an obvious conclusion: it is not reasonable for Kiruna to deliver welfare to the rest of Sweden, while they themselves cannot afford milk in the school canteens. So when Talga earlier this year pushed for the government to force the municipality to adopt a detailed plan, M. T. and the other politicians lost patience and cancelled the entire planning process.

They were right to do so.

It is a poor argument that the graphite that Talga will mine upstream from Vittangi will be used in batteries needed in the green transition. On the one hand, it is not a given that it is fossil coal that will be used for the batteries, Stora Enso is currently developing an alternative material with raw materials from the forest, but the most important thing of all is this: precisely because it is about the green transition, it is crucial that the new jobs that emerge are decent jobs that benefit the people and the local community that will support the transition. * ...So we say no...I don't get it 😅

This applies to Tesla, and it must apply to Talga."

*I would like to point out to the (brain-blinded indoctrinated) author that the antis are also against logging. I read about it regularly on the environmental protection association's website. Apart from the fact that it has not been tested whether this could really and practically replace a part of the graphite demand for batteries and fulfils the quality standards of the OEMs.
**The move was financed by LKAB and the regional administration was bad with money, if I remember correctly.




another comment to that topic:
There are some things being written in the media right now about a possible coal mine outside Vittangi.
It is claimed that the municipality's rejection of the mine is only because we are unhappy with the lack of profit from mining activities to the municipality.
This is not true, the main reason for the municipality's rejection of the coal mine is due to environmental reasons.
So even if there would be any compensation, it is a strong NO to any mine.
I urge all media to read the statement signed by Kiruna's 4 parties in the municipal leadership.
It is important that we all relate to reality regardless of what one thinks in the matter.

Amen to that, I agree.


So a double and absolutely no under no circumstances, no matter what, no matter how, even for climate protection. And the GT is just colonialism anyway. I'm afraid that nowadays real climate protection is a battle against environmentalists. I would never have thought of that maybe five years ago.
Have a nice weekend anyway ;)
So the problem is that FIFO miners pay their local taxes elsewhere.

Maybe there's a need for taxation reform.

Obviously FIFO workers must pay local taxes where they normally live, but, since they earn their income and spend a significant portion of their time at the mine, it would not be unreasonable if their local taxes were split pro-rata.

In Australia, the federal government imposes income tax and Goods and Services Tax (GST)**, but the states impose payroll tax* (on the company) as well as mining royalties of about 5%, while local governments impose land rates and garbage services, so we don't have an equivalent of local income tax.

Apparently Sweden does not impose mining royalties. This is another option that could be considered. As to who would be responsible for enforcing the tax, and how it would be distributed, that would be a matter for Swedish politics.

None of which justifies holding a potentially carbon dioxide removing company hostage.

* In economic terms. payroll tax may be seen as counter-productive in an economy where job creation is seen as an economic benefit, but I guess it does help to address the distribution problem to some extent.

** GST is redistributed to the states by the federal government.
 
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cosors

👀
Reminder. I think I read somewhere that Talga is a premium platinum sponsor of this summit.*
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One of the many speakers:
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But can't find him here:


"Investor Day​


To encourage new relationships and idea exchange across the raw materials sector, we've created a focused networking event. Investor Day introduces specialist investors to thirty, hand-picked startups working in Responsible Sourcing, Sustainable Materials, Circular Societies and other important fields.

The event features exciting pitches, inspiring talks, and opportunities to speak directly with the entrepreneurs working to solve the sector's biggest challenges.
Attending our Investor Day is a great way to connect with trailblazing portfolio companies looking to grow their business through like-minded partnerships and strategic funding.

Don't miss your chance to support the next generation of the raw material sector.

Investor Day 2024 Programme"​




That's not about us, but there is many networking I guess.
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____________________
*
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cosors

👀
There was another summit:

"European NEV Industry Chain Conference 2024​


6-7th May 2024​

Munich, Germany​

Under the phased target of zero emissions in 2035, sales of new energy vehicles are gradually increasing in Europe. At the same time, given the rise of hot sales of Chinese popular NEV models in Europe, European management leaders are accelerating the layout of the local manufacturing of new energy vehicles and batteries. Thus, on behalf of the Organizing Committee, I am honored to invite you to the European NEV Industry Chain Conference 2024. The summit will be held on May 6-7th, 2024 in Munich, Germany with the theme of “Driving Green Innovation: Premier NEV Platform for a Sustainable Future in Europe”.
The conference will update the NEVs industry development in Germany, France, Norway, UK, Netherlands, Spain, Hungary, Sweden, Belgium, Finland, Italy, Luxembourg, and Denmark for marketization status, and is aiming to collect all the industry peers to work together, and pushing local innovation technologies.
Since the anti-subsidy investigation into electric vehicles coming from China, and European local consumers’ demand for the civilian price, how will European local OEMs, battery manufacturers, and suppliers grasp the opportunity and produce enough NEVs to fill the gap? The 2-day European NEV Industry Chain Conference 2024 is committed to building a comprehensive platform for information sharing by gathering more than 500 selected senior attendees from Public Organizations, Academic Institutes, OEMs, Battery Manufacturers, Tier 1 & 2 Players, Charging & Infrastructure Providers, Power & Utilities & Grids, Technology Providers, and Consulting Companies, to discuss the challenges and solutions, and to discover the road for the rapid and healthy development of European NEVs & Battery industry.
We sincerely look forward to meeting you in Munich, Germany!
Best Regards,
Organizing Committee of European NEV Industry Chain Conference 2024"


🧐
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cosors

👀
There are things other than batteries that are important for the GT too.

"RESOLUTE: Creating a safer, more sustainable chemicals industry​

20th February 2024

Circa and the RESOLUTE project are building a first-of-its-kind 1,000-tonne biorefinery to enable the transition to a more sustainable chemicals industry. We’ve made the breakthrough – now we need you.​


In a world demanding real change at scale to limit the climate crisis, we are still miles away from replacing the toxic fossil-based chemicals used everywhere in everyday life.
Progress is being made with sustainability now a key objective for all responsible companies, and with corporate responsibilities extending deep into supply chains, the chemical building blocks of everyday products are under increasing scrutiny.


The inception of ReSolute​

Circa is one of the few businesses with the technology to produce sustainable chemicals at an industrial scale and the tenacity to make it happen. Having collaborated with hundreds of academic and industrial collaborators to demonstrate the value of the chemicals generated from their patented FuracellTM technology, Circa is scaling up manufacturing with the support of European stakeholders by building its ReSolute plant.
The Furacell technology Circa has developed extracts the bio-based building block levoglucosenone (LGO) from non-food cellulosic biomass in one step by generating a biochar co-product. The building of the ReSolute cellulosic-to-chemicals plant will realise over a decade of lab, pilot and demonstration scale R&D investment and ambition.
It will have the capacity to produce 1,000 tonnes of LGO and also includes the simple additional one-step catalytic hydrogenation process needed to produce Circa’s first LGO-derived solvent product – dihydrolevoglucosenone – or, as it is named, CyreneTM.
Cyrene capacity will also be 1,000 tonnes, given it can be produced with close to stoichiometric yields from LGO.


Cyrene​

LGO is a versatile platform molecule that has long been a target of the bio-based chemicals sector but, until now, was unobtainable at a commercial scale. It has the capability to be the intermediate for a portfolio of a hundred or more chemical derivatives and advanced materials with applications across solvents, speciality polymers, flavours and fragrances, pharmaceuticals, agrochemical actives and beyond.

The LGO platform will either produce materials capable of out-performing traditional counterparts or ‘drop-ins’, prized for their chirality and complex structures, which are manufactured more economically in fewer, safer steps.

For example, in 2022, a team at Merck (USA) won the Dunn Award for outstanding industrial implementation of novel green chemistry for employing the LGO platform to reduce the total synthesis of an established cancer drug from 11 steps to two steps as well as removing toxic solvents in favour of Cyrene.

Cyrene itself is a multi-purpose industrial solvent with applications as diverse as chemicals, pharmaceuticals, materials, electronics, inks, graphene, foods*/flavours and emerging sectors such as textile recycling and batteries. Cyrene has a unique property set, including viscosity, surface tension and polarities. It can work to replace dipolar aprotic solvents that are under regulatory pressure for their toxicity, i.e. NMP, DMF, DCM.

Additionally, unlike other solvents, Cyrene forms a controllable, reversible equilibrium with water and can disperse carbon materials such as graphene with up to ten times the loading seen with NMP.

View attachment 57400
The French Minister for Industry visits the ReSolute plant site in December 2021

Forming the BBI JU ReSolute consortium​

However, as we look to tomorrow, we need to not only build commercial chemical plants to produce safer, sustainable, bio-based molecules with which to transform the chemical industry into the net-zero industry society demands, but we also need to build their associated supply-chain ecosystems.

To this end, Circa has forged collaborations to create the 11-partner strong consortium that comprises the €11.6m ReSolute Bio-based Industries Joint Undertaking (BBI JU) project.

The ReSolute partners include Huntsman, Talga and Merck KGaA, who are developing Cyrene commercial applications for wire coatings, graphene coatings, graphene batteries, pharmaceuticals and membranes, respectively. The distributor, Will & Co., is a further partner working with Circa and the consortium to develop commercial applications and markets.

Additionally, AgroParisTech is scaling up an enzymatic route to Cyrene from LGO, which is metal-free to ensure the electronics and pharmaceutical applications have available material.

Rounding out the project partners working on valorising the plant output is Coal Products Ltd (CPL), which is carrying out R&D to validate the ReSolute plant’s biochar co-product for sale into the high-added-value carbon markets.

The ReSolute plant will be equipped to burn the biochar internally to meet the plant’s internal power needs and thus de-risk from utility pricing volatility; however, if higher added-value carbon products prove their economic worth, then the engineering design gives scope to optimise opportunity by selling the biochar as offtake.

To complete the ecosystem, ReSolute is fortunate to have Vitis Regulatory Ltd as the partner handling the required Cyrene REACH registration and the Green Chemistry Centre of Excellence at the University of York, which is developing quality assurance and purity grades for Circa’s novel products. The bioeconomy cluster Bioeconomy For Change (B4C) is handling communications and dissemination for the ReSolute BBI JU project, with exploitation activities being led by PNO Consultants.

Scaling up production of sustainable chemicals​

The ReSolute biorefinery is located in the Grant-Est region of France. It will re-purpose a coal-fired power station to create a lower carbon economy that provides skilled jobs in clean technologies. Support from local, regional and national governments has been notable; culminating in a visit by the French State Minister of Industry to the ReSolute plant site (see image) and the awarding of a multi-million Euro Relance grant by the French Government to further support.

The ReSolute BBI JU project is a Flagship project. It is one of a few carefully selected commercialisation projects targeting the building of first-of-their-kind-in-Europe biorefineries on a commercial scale. Each has a high replicability potential for further, larger plants to be built across the continent leveraging regional feedstocks, supply chains, workforces and offtake markets. This vision aligns exactly with Circa’s goal of further scaling up, with the next 12,000-tonne scale plant already being planned.

The ReSolute plant has been designed as a test bed with the exact design of future larger plants to enable easier and swifter scale-up with modular engineering. Phillip Mengal, former Executive Director of the BBI JU and Circular Bio-based Europe Joint Undertaking (CBE JU), said: “ReSolute is the Green Deal in motion.”

View attachment 57401
Circa’s FuracellTM technology enables non-food biomass to be converted to novel high-value chemicals that are safer and more sustainable by design

Seizing the opportunity of sustainable chemicals​

Perhaps, as you read this article, you are thinking ‘great but what comes next?’ Essentially, Circa and the ReSolute project need your active involvement to reach its long-term potential at a scale of tens of thousands of tonnes. Looking at the ReSolute project and beyond, after decades of outstanding R&D and millions in investment, science has delivered previously unimaginable solutions to our climate, biodiversity and resource challenges.

Industrial biotechnology and bio-based innovation means (for example) household waste can become organic-based chemicals, industrial waste gases act as fertiliser feedstocks and non-food cellulosic biomass can be converted into a novel, low-toxic industrial solvents, as Circa has proven.

Plus, digitalisation, Artificial Intelligence (AI) and the Internet of Things (IoT) are revolutionising manufacturing alongside 3D printing, electrification and renewables – i.e. the technical and engineering barriers to achieving a sustainable, safer chemicals industry using feedstocks that are renewable, bio-based and/or waste-derived are being stripped away.

However, the true value of these innovations will only be realised if they are nurtured beyond the pilot scale to achieve industrial scale-up and end-use. It is here where the challenge lies, given the investment needed and new markets/applications, with the policy to support them, that must be developed to compete with our petroleum-subsidised industry of today.

Can we afford to let groundbreaking innovations falter at scale-up while we turn to marvel at the newest shiny idea? We’d assert, given the challenges we face as a society a quarter of the way through the 21st century, the answer is ‘no’ regardless of the notable challenges associated with industrial scaling-up.

We could argue that R&D may be deemed the ‘easy’ part compared to the formidable task of engaging industrial stakeholders, fostering political will, securing financial support, redefining regulations and policies, embracing risk, altering end-user practices, managing legacy assets, shaping consumer perceptions, and, ultimately, constructing and operating commercial plants.

Nonetheless, a collective effort involving industry, governments, end-users, policymakers, innovators, and citizens globally is building the industrial-scale change we need in the chemicals we manufacture, use and dispose of. Circa is actively contributing to this transformative journey alongside the ReSolute consortium and BBI JU, and we invite you to step up and join forces with us in reshaping chemistry at a scale that will endure for good.
View attachment 57402
This project has received funding from the Bio Based Industries Joint Undertaking (JU) under grant agreement No 887674. The JU receives support from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme and the Bio-Based Industries Consortium.


Please note, this article will also appear in the seventeenth edition of our quarterly publication."
https://www.innovationnewsnetwork.c...er-more-sustainable-chemicals-industry/43977/

https://www.resolute-project.eu/


__________
*Talga is set as a supplier for another field of application, but maybe that's where this job announcement comes from?

Dec 13, 2023
"Talga Advanced Materials GmbH
Plant operator/chemist/food technologist (m/f/d) (machine and plant operator (without specifying focus))
...
Batch preparation (weighing, measuring)
..."
https://www.stepstone.de/stellenang...-Anlagenfuehrer-in-o-Angabe-des-Schwerpunkts-Rudolstadt-Talga-Advanced-Materials-GmbH--10366589-inline.html?lang=de&rewrite=1&rltr=15_15_25_seorl_s_0_0_0_0_1_0"
I was surprised why there is a link to CIRCA GROUP LIMITED in Australia on the CORDIS platform from the German branch. I already knew them but not in Australia. At first I was confused.

then:

Circa and Ixom Partner to Develop the Market for Cyrene™ in Australia and New Zealand​



So this is where things get serious. The product is rolled out. Talga is still involved I think. It started here:
1715765396789.png




I would be interested to know to what extent Talga is involved in the commercialisation or value creation or whether they were only part of the research group.

reminder:

RESOLUTE: Creating a safer, more sustainable chemicals industry


and:
Role in the project:
"Within the ReSolute project, Talga aims to harness the potential of Cyrene for the development of select products intended for use in batteries, coatings and inks."
 
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Semmel

Top 20
I was surprised why there is a link to CIRCA GROUP LIMITED in Australia on the CORDIS platform from the German branch. I already knew them but not in Australia. At first I was confused.

then:

Circa and Ixom Partner to Develop the Market for Cyrene™ in Australia and New Zealand​



So this is where things get serious. The product is rolled out. Talga is still involved I think. It started here:
View attachment 62917



I would be interested to know to what extent Talga is involved in the commercialisation or value creation or whether they were only part of the research group.

reminder:

RESOLUTE: Creating a safer, more sustainable chemicals industry


and:
Role in the project:
"Within the ReSolute project, Talga aims to harness the potential of Cyrene for the development of select products intended for use in batteries, coatings and inks."

FYI:
Dihydrolevoglucosenone (Cyrene) is a bicyclic, chiral, seven-membered heterocyclic cycloalkanone which is a waste derived and fully biodegradable aprotic dipolar solvent. It is an environmentally friendly alternative to dimethylformamide (DMF) and N-methyl-2-pyrrolidone (NMP).

 
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Diogenese

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FYI:
Dihydrolevoglucosenone (Cyrene) is a bicyclic, chiral, seven-membered heterocyclic cycloalkanone which is a waste derived and fully biodegradable aprotic dipolar solvent. It is an environmentally friendly alternative to dimethylformamide (DMF) and N-methyl-2-pyrrolidone (NMP).

Thought so!
 
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Semmel

Top 20
Hi Semmel,

I think the prices coming into Europe is difficult to tell because as MT says most if not all contracts are kept private.
The following is from TLG's DFS which has a BM projected price of around $US14K/t, price stabilising after 20230, after some price volatility from 2025-2030.

The comforting factor for me is that we are totally integrated and cost competitive with China (production costs ÙS$3K/t). For me, as long as the 2030+ average basket price for our anode is north of US $6K i am ok. By then we should be at well over 400K+ annual production?

Look whats happening in the lithium sector....China is manipulating the lithium concentrate (hard-rock) price to unsustainable levels.... We only have to deal with the end customers....a case of take it or leave it.



View attachment 62795

The reason why I asked my question is to find out if the assumptions from the DFS are still valid. I dont think Talga can charge a significant premium on chinese products. As much as the EU beats the drums for a green transition, I see VW, Mercedes, Audi to dial back their EV production efforts. Even Tesla is not growing its production like it used to. This will change over time of course, but we need an offtake NOW and so its NOW that we need to set the price. At this current stage, I dont see Talga making bank on its product, green, locally produced or not. They will easily be able to sell it. But the revenue generated from Talnode-C and therefore the profit and therefore the company valuation and share price are directly depending on the offtake sell price we will be able to secure. If we know the market price of Graphite Anode in Europe, we will be able to estimate the jump in share price once all formalities are settled.
 
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Diogenese

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brewm0re

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Monkeymandan

Regular
Yes, a quarter of a billion rolls off the tongue quite nicely Dio 😄 at such high grades
Sure does!

And revised scoping study based on current Mineral Resource (35m/t @ 23.8%) due for completion this quarter. So we’ll finally see what will supersede Niska, aka the new phase 2.

Time for a big FU to all those who have made life so painful for Talga.

leonardo dicaprio middle finger GIF
 
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beserk

Regular
FYI:
Dihydrolevoglucosenone (Cyrene) is a bicyclic, chiral, seven-membered heterocyclic cycloalkanone which is a waste derived and fully biodegradable aprotic dipolar solvent. It is an environmentally friendly alternative to dimethylformamide (DMF) and N-methyl-2-pyrrolidone (NMP).

I only know that anything that can be used instead of dimethylformamide(DMF) must be good. Previously used DMF in some protocols for purification of nucleic acids and the chemical instruction sheet was longer than you arm...
 
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Diogenese

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Well that was a nice little spike to end the week!

There was movement at the courthouse,
because the judge from Old Reykjavik had broken wind.
He weighed a thousand kilos,
and all the cracks had echoed in reply,
and the journal hacks snuff the breezes with delight,
and Thompson from down under came up to blow his bugle,
for the miners love hard graphite that's 25%.
 
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Battery stocks largely in favour today with Syrah up 7%, PLS up 2%, LTR up 5%,but RNU and EGR up 0%

The following have one thing in common.............................Europe centric

VUL up 14% today

TLG up 17% today
 
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Semmel

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Bell Potter thinks TLG will rise 200%.. i agree :D
 
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cosors

👀

Bell Potter thinks TLG will rise 200%.. i agree :D
I could puke when I see who wrote that. Mr Pickle himself. Some of us know him, but not for the better.
Screenshot_2024-05-17-10-33-54-86_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12.jpg
 
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JoMo68

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cosors

👀
I can’t remember what was the issue we had with him again ………?

@cosors. @JoMo68 ?
He is, with respect, a prick or mickle penis. He has his personal vendetta against BRN on many levels. He also operates e.g. on LinkedIn or here on TSE and HC. I think he works for shorter, but that could be aluminium on my head. He doesn't even shy away from false infos to underpin his short tips on MF. He is simply unscrupulous and has no sense of honour and decency.
But I know exactly...
I'd better leave that topic alone 🤣


_
Incidentally, MF likes to recommend shares that they hold themselves or MF belongs as company to. I have read the small print several times under stock recommendations and I have taken a closer look at MF. They are simply a dubious bunch of jokers.
 
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