TLG Discussion 2022

cosors

cosors

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JNRB said:
Why are they not demanding more money from the reindeer herders that are currently arguing they should have exclusive use of the land for their own businesses?
Click to expand...
The whole thing is argumentatively twisted anyway.
Because they don't get enough money from the government, they are against new projects and economic progress. Just one example.
I think only antis with micro-vision or NIMBYs understand that.
It is also interesting that the chairman has actually voted in favour of the project. But here, too, he argues against it in the newspapers. Again, twisted. Twisted wherever I look. I took the trouble to read through all the comments in the anti-camps. Not only my mind but also my eyes are now twisted. Nobody is interested in the climate and everyone agrees - the apocalypse is imminent. They simply ignore what has been explained to them and also what Talga is committed to. Belief is the new substitute for knowledge, for them.
 
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Semmel

Semmel

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cosors said:
Belief is the new substitute for knowledge, for them.
Click to expand...

Not only for them. It's going on in broad strokes through all of society. Belief/opinion is considered on par with truth and reality. Not sure how to fight against it.
 
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D

DAH

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cosors said:
The whole thing is argumentatively twisted anyway.
Because they don't get enough money from the government, they are against new projects and economic progress. Just one example.
I think only antis with micro-vision or NIMBYs understand that.
It is also interesting that the chairman has actually voted in favour of the project. But here, too, he argues against it in the newspapers. Again, twisted. Twisted wherever I look. I took the trouble to read through all the comments in the anti-camps. Not only my mind but also my eyes are now twisted. Nobody is interested in the climate and everyone agrees - the apocalypse is imminent. They simply ignore what has been explained to them and also what Talga is committed to. Belief is the new substitute for knowledge, for them.
Click to expand...
Thx Cosors. "Twisted" is an understatement! It hurts my brain reading about it. Thankfully just another speed bump soon to be navigated.
 
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cosors

cosors

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From the other anti-forum of this economist guru where they openly speak out against the EV boom.
But it's not to be understood the way I spontaneously understood it. It is there meant 'seriously' - why us here in Sweden?

greta.jpg
 
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beserk

beserk

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Aaah...but reindeer herders have special protection as 'ur people'.

The protection also covers cultural practises eg reindeer husbandry although the cultural practises are performed by a Talma Sami on the back of a non traditional snow mobile, or with the assistance of a definitively non traditional Drone.

And these Sami 'cultural practises' being supported by Government subsidies.

On the other side of the border, the Norwegian Sami of Fosen are now raking in the NOK or Norwegian krone after successful negotiations with the Government. As pointed out in other postings.

NOK 230 000 per reindeer, with as an example the Norwegian reindeer herding family owning 33.3 reindeer on average, receiving a State subsidy of NOK 7.7 million. Each.

Perhaps this is Talmas end game? To receive ridiculous amounts of money and become true Lords of the Land. Each family with a Castle and a Tesla or two in the Castle yard besides the Vidde Li Ion battery powered Snow mobile.

Hmmm... did I read some where that Talga offered a one off sum for all the reindeer of Talma?

I think the Swedish Government needs to be directly engaged as a party to these negotiations. It is only the Government that can offer Talma equivalent grazing lands to offset the 'loss' of winter grazing under Njunisvarre. As one incentive and a pocketful of cash as another incentive.

So Talma reindeer herders can be gainfully employed by Swedish Government as 100 % subsidised Game keepers. Like their Norwegian brethren. In a perfect world.

With all Graphite containing Li Ion battery mod cons, utilised by Sami and Kvän, like electric cars and oversnow vehicles being plugged into charging points powered by wind and hydro power. My future vision of life in the Arctic North.

And my vision for the Talga mine in Njunisvarre outside of Vittangi complemented by the Talga Battery Anode factory in Luleju.

Including 50 new, well paid local jobs in the Graphite mine, for descendants of the settler Kvän families in Vittangi, my relatives, living permanently in the village.

A village that is rapidly becoming a place you retire. The mean age of the shrinking population is rapidly approaching 65 years, the time when Swedes normally withdraw from working life.

No worries

Beserk
 
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cosors

cosors

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"This week's brawl: The bath house builders in the banana republic against untalented battery bosses

Easter week is a lot about reconciliation, but that was not noticed in P4 Norrbotten's coverage of the latest tours around the Australian mining company Talga's planned graphite mine in Vittangi.

After Kiruna's left-wing majority in a council decision stopped the planning process, the Moderates' group leader in the Riksdag, Mattias Karlsson, brought out the heavy artillery. 

He likened the municipal councilor Mats Taaveniku (S) to a "mafia boss" and the municipal management to a "banana republic", and said that Kiruna is conducting "pure blackmail" against the company in order to usurp benefits.

Karlsson also mocks the municipality for financial incompetence – a billion-dollar investment in a bathhouse is mentioned – and concludes:

- The question is whether Kiruna should not be forcibly managed.

In his argumentation, Taaveniku has pointed out that great natural values can be lost, and that Kiruna must get something back for all the "welfare" it provides the rest of the country with. He calls the M attack "an unusually untalented statement" that "borders on slander." 

The project sows division among the Social Democrats in Norrbotten County. According to Norrbottens-Kuriren, Luleå's municipal councilor Carina Sammeli and county chairman Fredrik Lundh Sammeli do not want to take a clear position yet - "but at the same time express a concern that the industrial project will end up in limbo".

Since the Land and Environment High Court has given the mining venture the green light, the government can run over Kiruna if it wants to. And labor market minister Johan Pehrson (L) was clearly on the side of Tidö colleague Karlsson already when he inaugurated Talga's battery anode factory in Luleå last year. 

- We should not be shy about mines. The S-led government in Kiruna is embarrassing itself."
www.fokus.se

Veckans bråk: Badhusbyggarna i bananrepubliken mot begåvningssvaga batteribossar - Fokus

Påskveckan handlar ju mycket om försoning, men det märktes inte i P4 Norrbottens bevakning av de senaste turerna kring Talgas planerade grafitgruva i Vittangi.
www.fokus.se www.fokus.se
 
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cosors

cosors

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"Worrying environmental thinking by social democrats in the county

1712210069622.png

The Social Democrats who want to stop Talga's graphite mine in Vittangi should think again, writes L. S., Luleå.

In Norrbotten there is a project for the extraction and processing of graphite, mainly for use in battery manufacturing. This is so unique and important that it is of national interest. Within the EU, it is considered very important for the whole of Europe and is considered an important piece of the puzzle in the green transition. The importance cannot be underestimated. Talga is the name of the company that has taken the lead..." rest behind PW
https://nsd.se/insandare/artikel/orovackande-miljotankande-av-socialdemokrater-i-lanet/r0qzdvdj

_________
Norrländska Socialdemokraten (NSD) (The Norrland Social Democrats) is a daily regional newspaper published in Norrbotten County, Sweden.
 
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cosors

cosors

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cosors said:
...

Talga wants to mine 100,000 tons of graphite ore every year in an open pit mine. The lifespan is estimated at around 25 years and can provide around 60 direct jobs for Vittangi. Something that Mats Taaveniku does not think is necessary.
...
Click to expand...
If you're frustrated these days with local politicians and activists and NIMBYs and environmentalists over climate change, I recommend a standard keyword search on the government page. Each topic is addressed as you would expect. In these dark green times, there are still people who think and don't just believe.


A general information overview on the government page:

Reported direct employment in mining for 2022 was 7,773 people, but about double that if indirect jobs are included. It is estimated that the entire mining cluster supports at least 100,000 to 125,000 direct and indirect jobs in Sweden.

Using the average of the two numbers the 60 jobs in Vittangi alone would total around 868 direct and indirect jobs. Unless the government is lying to its people.)

e.g.
"Mines: Questions and answers
Published 13 March 2024
A secure and sustainable supply of minerals and metals is necessary to enable the green building of society, strengthen competitiveness, electrify Sweden and strengthen Swedish defence capability. More mines are needed to reduce Sweden's and the EU's dependence on raw materials from third countries.

Building a greener, safer and more digital Sweden places new demands on technology, infrastructure, defence materiel and fossil-free energy, which leads to increased demand for raw materials.

The page is updated continuously.
Questions and answers about mines (I can't copy it here for you so follow the link below)
1712225153554.png


1712225430991.png

or:
1712226196080.png

or:
1712230366449.png


*""Sweden is Europe's leading mining nation today and we will continue to be. But when it comes to critical raw materials needed to secure society's green building, we are dependent on importing raw materials from countries like China. Instead, Sweden must take the lead in securing entire value chains for the EU when it comes to both strategic and critical raw materials - from exploration to production to the end product. It all starts at the mine, and my aim is to present an ambitious strategy for minerals this year," said the Minister for Energy, Business and Industry, Ebba Busch."

It goes on and on on the government's page.
I'm actually looking for our case.
Don't let self-declared environmentalists discourage you from doing the right thing. Talga is not alone in this process. It's agonisingly slow but that's the way it is in Sweden and elsewhere.

If the detailed plan is not adopted and the appeal isn't rejected the government will show Sweden's population and the entire EU that they have lost control of the common good to groups of dogmatists. I don't think that will happen. We will see.
 
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JoMo68

JoMo68

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cosors said:
PleasIf you're frustrated these days with local politicians and activists and NIMBYs and environmentalists over climate change, I recommend a standard keyword search on the government page. Each topic is addressed as you would expect. In these dark green times, there are still people who think and don't just believe.


A general information overview on the government page:

Reported direct employment in mining for 2022 was 7,773 people, but about double that if indirect jobs are included. It is estimated that the entire mining cluster supports at least 100,000 to 125,000 direct and indirect jobs in Sweden.

Using the average of the two numbers the 60 jobs in Vittangi alone would total around 868 direct and indirect jobs. Unless the government is lying to its people.)

e.g.
"Mines: Questions and answers
Published 13 March 2024
A secure and sustainable supply of minerals and metals is necessary to enable the green building of society, strengthen competitiveness, electrify Sweden and strengthen Swedish defence capability. More mines are needed to reduce Sweden's and the EU's dependence on raw materials from third countries.

Building a greener, safer and more digital Sweden places new demands on technology, infrastructure, defence materiel and fossil-free energy, which leads to increased demand for raw materials.

The page is updated continuously.
Questions and answers about mines (I can't copy it here for you so follow the link below)
View attachment 60292

View attachment 60294
or:
View attachment 60296
or:
View attachment 60301

*""Sweden is Europe's leading mining nation today and we will continue to be. But when it comes to critical raw materials needed to secure society's green building, we are dependent on importing raw materials from countries like China. Instead, Sweden must take the lead in securing entire value chains for the EU when it comes to both strategic and critical raw materials - from exploration to production to the end product. It all starts at the mine, and my aim is to present an ambitious strategy for minerals this year," said the Minister for Energy, Business and Industry, Ebba Busch."

It goes on and on on the government's page.
I'm actually looking for our case.
Don't let self-declared environmentalists discourage you from doing the right thing. Talga is not alone in this process. It's agonisingly slow but that's the way it is in Sweden and elsewhere.

If the detailed plan is not adopted and the appeal isn't rejected the government will show Sweden's population and the entire EU that they have lost control of the common good to groups of dogmatists. I don't think that will happen. We will see.
Click to expand...
Star Trek Kirk GIF
 
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cosors

cosors

👀
JoMo68 said:
Star Trek Kirk GIF
Click to expand...
And I haven't even introduced you to the pack driver and guru economist Mr A. M. and his visions 🤐🤪😅
 
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cosors

cosors

👀
cosors said:
The Liberals:

"The M-politician's attack on Kiruna: Banana Republic - should be forcibly managed
View attachment 60055
The only thing Kiruna municipality should be able to demand, according to Mattias Karlsson (M), is that you follow laws and regulations.

Now the Moderates' group leader in the Riksdag (government), Mattias Karlsson, is attacking Kiruna's municipal council after the plans to cancel Talga's planned graphite mine in Vittangi.

"It's like a mafia boss dressed up as a municipal councillor," he says."
sverigesradio.se

M-politikerns attack mot Kiruna: Bananrepublik – borde tvångsförvaltas - P4 Norrbotten

Nu går Moderaternas gruppledare i riksdagen, Mattias Karlsson, till attack mot Kirunas kommunalråd efter planerna på att avbryta Talgas planerade grafitgruva ...
sverigesradio.se sverigesradio.se
Click to expand...
The politician's criticism above is not plucked out of the air or too polemic as I first thought.



"Poor internal governance" - hear the criticism of politicians in Kiruna.

Economy in the doldrums - criticism of Kiruna's politicians

The control and management of finances in Kiruna municipality has been too poor for too long. The municipal auditors now want to criticise the municipal board.

The municipal auditors often make comments and criticisms when they review the municipality's activities.
But a "remark" against the municipal board is a bit more serious and extremely unusual, according to Thore Johansson (C), chairman of the auditors.

"There has been poor financial control and poor internal management of the organisation for a long time," he says.

How much the loan burden has grown
The problems are said to have begun under the previous municipal leadership when Gunnar Selberg (C) was chairman of the municipal board and have escalated since Mats Taaveniku (S) took over the post.
Kiruna municipality's borrowing burden has grown to around SEK 2.5 billion, and these debts have grown both during the current and previous mandate period.

The bathhouse has swallowed up money
A bathing centre that has eaten up money is one of several reasons for this.
The municipal auditors do not go into individual investments, but point to shortcomings in the planning and management of investments in general.

In the clip, Thore Johansson explains the specific issues criticised in the report - and Mats Taaveniku responds to the criticism."
www.svt.se

Ekonomin i botten – nu kommer kritiken mot Kirunas politiker

Kontrollen och styrningen av ekonomin i Kiruna kommun har varit alltför dålig, alltför länge. Kommunrevisorerna vill nu rikta en anmärkning mot kommunstyrelsen.
www.svt.se www.svt.se
 
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Monkeymandan

Monkeymandan

Regular
cosors said:
If you're frustrated these days with local politicians and activists and NIMBYs and environmentalists over climate change, I recommend a standard keyword search on the government page. Each topic is addressed as you would expect. In these dark green times, there are still people who think and don't just believe.


A general information overview on the government page:

Reported direct employment in mining for 2022 was 7,773 people, but about double that if indirect jobs are included. It is estimated that the entire mining cluster supports at least 100,000 to 125,000 direct and indirect jobs in Sweden.

Using the average of the two numbers the 60 jobs in Vittangi alone would total around 868 direct and indirect jobs. Unless the government is lying to its people.)

e.g.
"Mines: Questions and answers
Published 13 March 2024
A secure and sustainable supply of minerals and metals is necessary to enable the green building of society, strengthen competitiveness, electrify Sweden and strengthen Swedish defence capability. More mines are needed to reduce Sweden's and the EU's dependence on raw materials from third countries.

Building a greener, safer and more digital Sweden places new demands on technology, infrastructure, defence materiel and fossil-free energy, which leads to increased demand for raw materials.

The page is updated continuously.
Questions and answers about mines (I can't copy it here for you so follow the link below)
View attachment 60292

View attachment 60294
or:
View attachment 60296
or:
View attachment 60301

*""Sweden is Europe's leading mining nation today and we will continue to be. But when it comes to critical raw materials needed to secure society's green building, we are dependent on importing raw materials from countries like China. Instead, Sweden must take the lead in securing entire value chains for the EU when it comes to both strategic and critical raw materials - from exploration to production to the end product. It all starts at the mine, and my aim is to present an ambitious strategy for minerals this year," said the Minister for Energy, Business and Industry, Ebba Busch."

It goes on and on on the government's page.
I'm actually looking for our case.
Don't let self-declared environmentalists discourage you from doing the right thing. Talga is not alone in this process. It's agonisingly slow but that's the way it is in Sweden and elsewhere.

If the detailed plan is not adopted and the appeal isn't rejected the government will show Sweden's population and the entire EU that they have lost control of the common good to groups of dogmatists. I don't think that will happen. We will see.
Click to expand...
Hi Cosors

Thanks for your ongoing energy and effort on the forum, it provides a grounding of logic to steady the nerves!

Who could believe one year ago today we received approval, and here we are still stuck in limbo. The opportunity cost has been enormous, but these pages on the govt website at least provide reassurance this remains a nailed on dead cert - for me at least. I think the nonsense with the municipal council is just noise, they will rightly be steamrolled by the govt when required, and hopefully they glean less of the tax revenue benefit as a result. Or worst case it is a problem that can solved by throwing some money at it. For me the SC judgement remains the keystone to everything.

I didn’t buy into the notion of the SC waiting for the CRMA to come into effect, but based on something Gvan posted over at HC I think there could be some merit to the theory now, as the court can apparently take into account factors that would alter a precedence should one be set by their ruling, ie CRMA comes into force, Vittangi granted Strategic Project status, and a ruling in favour of the appellants would be nullified. That’s not to say I think the SC would/will judge in favour of the appellants, my vote is still for a decision imminently, but perhaps there is some relevance the CRMA now has on the process.

According to the anti’s lawyer, the act will come into force on 20 May. This would mean it is published in the official journal of the EU on 1 May. I can’t find anything anywhere to substantiate this, but am checking the journal daily and it hasn’t been published yet. Also according to our orange tinged friend, the process for applying for Strategic Project status would be outlined in April. I haven’t been able to find anything on this either yet, but timing sounds logical.

If the SC judgement is outstanding come May, I see the turnaround of Talga’s application and approval as a Strategic Project as the first opportunity for the EU to flex its CRMA muscle, with rapid approval to force the hand of the SC.

Opinions only.
 
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cosors

cosors

👀

"After the mining dispute in Kiruna: The government's response may be delayed​

Published today at 11.00
  • There is unlikely to be a decision before the summer regarding the company Talga's request to the government for a planning injunction for a graphite mine outside Vittangi.
  • This is the opinion of F redrik A hlén, Head of Administration at the Ministry of Rural Affairs and Infrastructure.
  • The background is that Kiruna Municipality has opposed a detailed development plan for the mine."
sverigesradio.se

Efter gruvbråket i Kiruna: Regeringens svar kan dröja - P4 Norrbotten

Det lär inte blir något beslut före sommaren när det gäller bolaget Talgas begäran till regeringen om ett planföreläggande för en grafitgruva utanför Vittangi. ...
sverigesradio.se sverigesradio.se

I agree with you retroactively to yesterday. ... ... ...
Talga could have asked the government a year ago, if what he is saying is true, and bypassed Kiruna, then perhaps it would not really have been decided too early.
Of course we have no further information.
 
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Semmel

Semmel

Regular
Wasn't the whole point that the government would decide this quickly? How is this quick if it takes until the summer!? And why would he say that? I don't like this at all.
 
WheresTheMonkey

WheresTheMonkey

Regular
Semmel said:
Wasn't the whole point that the government would decide this quickly? How is this quick if it takes until the summer!? And why would he say that? I don't like this at all.
Click to expand...
This is just another part of the rolling disaster that is this BS company

I would expect an ASX update on Monday but I bet there is none

Pathetic

I don’t remember this problem ever being mentioned by MT at a webinar .It’s always been about the Court decision .

No other headwinds

Why has this never been mentioned when it is probably the most visible problem rather than try and read a Supreme Court Judges mind ?

F$$k this joint is looking more and more like a director lifestyle company

Why do we never ever see buying by directors at these SP prices ?

Two of them just participate in each CR to make it look good for maybe an outlay of $13,000 odd each

No other buying EVER

Summer ???

F$$k this !
 
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anodepirate

anodepirate

Emerged
Hi Guys,

Can anyone explain to me what exactly the blocking of the detailed development plan entails? I can't figure this out.

To my knowledge there are 3 important permits.

1. Environment and Natura 2000 permit for the mine - GRANTED

2. Environment and Natura 2000 permit for the refinery - GRANTED

3. Mining permit for the Nunasvaara Södra mine - GRANTED, but appeals have been submitted. This is on the desk of the Supreme Court, which can make a decision on it at any time.

What exactly is the local municipality trying to stop? What exactly do the detailed development plans entail? Should I see this as a kind of building permit for the refinery or the mine?

Thank you very much in advance to whoever can explain this to me.
 
Semmel

Semmel

Regular
anodepirate said:
Hi Guys,

Can anyone explain to me what exactly the blocking of the detailed development plan entails? I can't figure this out.

To my knowledge there are 3 important permits.

1. Environment and Natura 2000 permit for the mine - GRANTED

2. Environment and Natura 2000 permit for the refinery - GRANTED

3. Mining permit for the Nunasvaara Södra mine - GRANTED, but appeals have been submitted. This is on the desk of the Supreme Court, which can make a decision on it at any time.

What exactly is the local municipality trying to stop? What exactly do the detailed development plans entail? Should I see this as a kind of building permit for the refinery or the mine?

Thank you very much in advance to whoever can explain this to me.
Click to expand...

I dont have a super good understanding either. I think the mining permit is not disputed in the appeals. The granting of the environmental permit of the mine is appealed.

The municapility is tasked to make a zoning plan for the land appropriation, meaning, they should change the land from (I guess) forresty to industrial for the mine? Its just that. Nothing to do with the mine it self, just that the land is labeled as suitable for mining. The change is already prepared, so all that is left is a signature under the paper. And Kiruna doesnt want to do that. First they delayed signing the paper for more than a year for dubious reasons. Which is why Talga went to the government to make them adopt the new land zoning. Then Kiruna claims that "ohh, people should wait for us to make a decision before you run to the government. In THIS case, we dont play ball with you. Denied!". And then they tell the government: if you want us to sign this letter for talga, we want more pieces of the cake!

Now some rando (Fredrik Ahlén) claims its gonna take until summer to make up their minds.. without giving a reason why it would take this long.

Its EXACTLY like acquiring permit A38!

 
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WheresTheMonkey

WheresTheMonkey

Regular
Semmel said:
Now some rando (Fredrik Ahlén) claims its gonna take until summer to make up their minds.. without giving a reason why it would take this long
Click to expand...
Except this rando would have received his instructions from above.

That is the real worry

I think there are obstacles that we are not being told about. Especially within the politics v locals

Oh well not before Summer means June onwards which is only the month after May
 
cosors

cosors

👀
www.sgu.se

Minerals Act (1991:45)

Observe! This translation of the Minerals Act (1991:45) was ordered by the Geological Survey of Sweden on the 8 of March 2018. Any amendments after the 8 March 2018 is therefore not included in this translation.
www.sgu.se www.sgu.se
 
anodepirate

anodepirate

Emerged
Semmel said:
I dont have a super good understanding either. I think the mining permit is not disputed in the appeals. The granting of the environmental permit of the mine is appealed.

The municapility is tasked to make a zoning plan for the land appropriation, meaning, they should change the land from (I guess) forresty to industrial for the mine? Its just that. Nothing to do with the mine it self, just that the land is labeled as suitable for mining. The change is already prepared, so all that is left is a signature under the paper. And Kiruna doesnt want to do that. First they delayed signing the paper for more than a year for dubious reasons. Which is why Talga went to the government to make them adopt the new land zoning. Then Kiruna claims that "ohh, people should wait for us to make a decision before you run to the government. In THIS case, we dont play ball with you. Denied!". And then they tell the government: if you want us to sign this letter for talga, we want more pieces of the cake!

Now some rando (Fredrik Ahlén) claims its gonna take until summer to make up their minds.. without giving a reason why it would take this long.

Its EXACTLY like acquiring permit 838!

Click to expand...

Thanks! So how much weight should we give to the statement of Fredrik Ahlén? Is he involved in the decision making around the detailed plan on behalve of the national government? Or is he just an annoying left-wing tree hugger trying to cause some commotion?
 
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