TLG Discussion 2022

Semmel

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Talga signs Altilium EV battery recycling JDA

A logical step to fulfil the requirements of the e.g. CRMA and make politicians happy. Talga has been working on this topic for a long time and many politicians talk about recycling first and mining second. We know that there has to be something to recycle first. And we know that it is very difficult to extract graphite from black mass. And then they have to find out what it can be used for. That takes time. I assume that this will be run in parallel to show that Talga is one of the first.
Don't get me wrong, I think that's very positive, but it doesn't really excite me. It's price-sensitive No but makes perfect sense.

Interesting development. I was sure so far that talga planned recycling of anode materials only in the context of processing it to graphene or coatings. Not in the context of processing it to new anode material.

The processing must include a step to remove the SEI layer (solid electrolyte interphase) that forms around the graphite in the battery. That is possibly a dirty chemical process (just an assumption, no idea, really). There probably is research somewhere to that effect but I have not looked for it.

The more important issue is, that at least to my understanding, it's impossible to fix the damage to the crystal structure of the particles. So the processing must include a step of filtering out the broken or too small particles (i.e. the fragments of previously normal sized particles).

All in all, it might be possible to recycle the material to some fraction. But it seems to me, that it's questionable if the process is economically viable or even cleaner than digging out new graphite or producing it synthetically. We might have a case here where recycling to new battery material is actually less environmentally than producing it new. Processing black mess graphite to other products like graphene or coating material seems more promising to me. I hope to be educated to the contrary though.
 
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cosors

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Interesting development. I was sure so far that talga planned recycling of anode materials only in the context of processing it to graphene or coatings. Not in the context of processing it to new anode material.

The processing must include a step to remove the SEI layer (solid electrolyte interphase) that forms around the graphite in the battery. That is possibly a dirty chemical process (just an assumption, no idea, really). There probably is research somewhere to that effect but I have not looked for it.

The more important issue is, that at least to my understanding, it's impossible to fix the damage to the crystal structure of the particles. So the processing must include a step of filtering out the broken or too small particles (i.e. the fragments of previously normal sized particles).

All in all, it might be possible to recycle the material to some fraction. But it seems to me, that it's questionable if the process is economically viable or even cleaner than digging out new graphite or producing it synthetically. We might have a case here where recycling to new battery material is actually less environmentally than producing it new. Processing black mess graphite to other products like graphene or coating material seems more promising to me. I hope to be educated to the contrary though.
In addition, it may well be that Talga has no choice but to be active in this area. The company must demonstrate its commitment to sustainability. If only through the EU sustainability policy. I could imagine that. Like you, I'm not sure whether this makes economic and ecological sense at all. But from a purely regulatory and policy perspective, it makes perfect sense.
Politicians' hearts open when someone like Talga emphasises that they are very active in recycling.
And who knows, maybe they'll find a way.
At the moment I rather imagine that this path will be taken to fulfil requirements and to show - look, we are trying very hard to meet your expectations. Isn't that nice?

I dug (?) into these topics and Coka Cola via paboco graphene and Talga back then. Their tactic for several decades has been to show that they are actively involved in sustainability projects. Every single project was later stopped at some point and a new one was created. They have no interest in moving away from plastic, on the contrary. But by constantly being able to point to very promising projects, they have peace of mind when it comes to politics.
Of course, Talga is certainly something completely different and it's not a question of wanting to, but of being able to. Simply saying no doesn't work, they can't do.

Northvolt commissions battery recycling plant in Hamburg
 
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Semmel

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In addition, it may well be that Talga has no choice but to be active in this area. The company must demonstrate its commitment to sustainability. If only through the EU sustainability policy. I could imagine that. Like you, I'm not sure whether this makes economic and ecological sense at all. But from a purely regulatory and policy perspective, it makes perfect sense.
Politicians' hearts open when someone like Talga emphasises that they are very active in recycling.
And who knows, maybe they'll find a way.
At the moment I rather imagine that this path will be taken to fulfil requirements and to show - look, we are trying very hard to meet your expectations. Isn't that nice?

I dug (?) into these topics and Coka Cola via paboco graphene and talga back then. Their tactic for several decades has been to show that they are actively involved in sustainability projects. Every single project was later stopped at some point and a new one was created. They have no interest in moving away from plastic, on the contrary. But by constantly being able to point to very promising projects, they have peace of mind when it comes to politics.
Of course, Talga is certainly something completely different and it's not a question of wanting to, but of being able to. Simply saying no doesn't work, they can't do.

Northvolt commissions battery recycling plant in Hamburg
Very good point.
 
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anbuck

Regular
Interesting development. I was sure so far that talga planned recycling of anode materials only in the context of processing it to graphene or coatings. Not in the context of processing it to new anode material.

The processing must include a step to remove the SEI layer (solid electrolyte interphase) that forms around the graphite in the battery. That is possibly a dirty chemical process (just an assumption, no idea, really). There probably is research somewhere to that effect but I have not looked for it.

The more important issue is, that at least to my understanding, it's impossible to fix the damage to the crystal structure of the particles. So the processing must include a step of filtering out the broken or too small particles (i.e. the fragments of previously normal sized particles).

All in all, it might be possible to recycle the material to some fraction. But it seems to me, that it's questionable if the process is economically viable or even cleaner than digging out new graphite or producing it synthetically. We might have a case here where recycling to new battery material is actually less environmentally than producing it new. Processing black mess graphite to other products like graphene or coating material seems more promising to me. I hope to be educated to the contrary though.
It doesn't explicitly say that the recycled material will be used as Talnode-C, just "anode products". It could be used to make graphene or maybe hard carbon? Hard carbon is a chaotic mess of carbon rather than a neat crystal and is used as the anode in sodium ion batteries.
 
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cosors

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Hi all!
Here is a little more insight. I actually wanted to write a detailed analysis, but I won't now. Read for yourself.

S in Kiruna against new mine: "Colonization must stop"​

1711703660158.png

In the spring of 2022, Talga test drilled for graphite in the Nunasvaara area outside Vittangi. In April 2023, Talga received the green light from the Land and Environment Court to open a graphite mine outside Vittangi and mine 100,000 tons of ore each year.

Kiruna municipality says no to a graphite mine in Vittangi. Now the question lies with the government, which can force the municipality to say yes.
- That provision has basically never been used, says Maria Petterson, professor of jurisprudence at Luleå University of Technology.


Kiruna municipality is getting ready to say no to the mining company Talga's establishment of a graphite mine in the village of Vittangi. The municipal board's working committee proposes that the municipal board does not proceed with the detailed planning process for the mine establishment, something that P4 Norrbotten was the first to report on.

Kiruna's municipal councilor Mats Taaveniku (S) tells DN that the mine is too short-term to risk the environmental values in the area, and that the municipality wants more out of the mine.

- We deliver welfare to the whole of Sweden, although we have to cut back on our own welfare. We will be skeptical of new mines until we receive compensation.

A detailed plan regulates how the municipality's land is to be used. The mining company Talga does not think that the municipality has worked quickly enough in deciding on the detailed plan. During March, they therefore submitted a request for a planning order to the government. The company wants the government to force Kiruna municipality to adopt a new detailed plan.

- Talga has preceded our planning process and then we think it is just as well that we cancel the planning process, says Mats Taaveniku.

1711703804851.png

If Talga opens a mine in Vittangi, the concentrated graphite from the mining area will be shipped to Luleå. There, they want to manufacture anodes, which are an important component in electric car batteries. In September 2023, the first sod was broken for Talgas' battery anode factory in Luleå, where, among others, Minister of Labor Markets and Integration Johan Pehrson participated.

Talga wants to mine 100,000 tons of graphite ore every year in an open pit mine. The lifespan is estimated at around 25 years and can provide around 60 direct jobs for Vittangi. Something that Mats Taaveniku does not think is necessary.

- We have a thousand vacant jobs in Kiruna. Talga is not prepared to build housing in Svappavaara and Vittangi to reduce fly in fly out staff.

The EU has singled out graphite as an important component for the industry of the future. Among other things, graphite can be used in car batteries. Talgas press communicator Cen Rolfsson highlights the graphite in Vittangi as a "key role in coping with the green transition", in a written comment to DN.

"Therefore, it is sad that the municipality tries to use the planning monopoly to stop the project, and uses a single company as a pawn in a game with the government. We also experience broad support among the municipality's residents."

Cen Rolfsson further writes that he thinks it is "remarkable that representatives from a municipality are sniffing at new and prestigious job opportunities" but that they understand the challenges the municipality is facing.

"Talga aims to be an active and positive force in Vittangi and the entire municipality. But we will not build housing in exchange for getting the municipality to do its job."

1711703874572.png

Kiruna's municipal councilor Mats Taaveniku (S) thinks that the plans for Talga's graphite mine are too short-term to risk the environmental values of Vittangi.

Municipalities have a veto when it comes to wind power establishments, something similar does not exist for mining establishments. However, the municipalities have great opportunities to decide how the land is to be used through the so-called municipal planning monopoly.

Maria Pettersson, professor of jurisprudence at Luleå University of Technology, says that the municipalities' influence over land use is relatively strong in Sweden.

- But there is a provision in the Planning and Building Act that enables the government to instruct the municipality to adopt a detailed plan. That provision has basically never been used. But legally it is quite possible.

She emphasizes that it is more common in countries such as England and Denmark for municipalities to be ordered to plan, for example for wind power investments.

Mats Taaveniku (S) says that Kiruna cannot afford to "lead the transformation".

- We already have debts of 2.7 billion. Somewhere there must be a stop to the colonization of northern Sweden, he says and continues:

- It is not that we are not positive about mines. But there must be a change in the distribution policy in Sweden, it is not acceptable that the state collects billions while we do not get a penny back.

DN is looking for representatives from the government.

Facts. The graphite mine in Vittangi​

The EU lists graphite as one of the 27 materials necessary for the transition. The EU also wants to break the dependence on China, which today is the world leader in graphite mining.

In April this year, Talga received the green light from the Land and Environment Court to open a graphite mine outside Vittangi and mine 100,000 tonnes of ore each year. The plan is to have mining running six months a year.

The mining plans have been met with criticism from Sami villages and several nature organisations. Affected Sámi villages have demonstrated that the mine would mean major encroachments on pastures and migration routes."

What is your opinion? I look forward to your comments.
 
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Similar problem in Minnesota actually. All the iron mines send entirely too much money to the state to build a billion dollar football stadium down in the twin cities while all the northland gets is a bike trail. Might be exaggerating a bit but it is a fair request for the tax money earned by the mine to stay more local. There is the IRRRB (https://mn.gov/irrrb/) which was created to resolve issues like that but unfortunately it seems less useful than intended to the locals.
 
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beserk

Regular
Well that was always the saying in Kiruna; we the miners of Kiruna have contributed, with the wealth stripped, literally from under our feet, to the benefit of some people living in Stockholm.

In Stockholm the money piling up from the export of Iron ore goes to constructing better common public communications, like the Subway network, benefitting Stockholmers.

And some citizens of Kiruna council genuinely recent the treatment of Norrland as a Colony rich in natural resources to distant exploateurs in their offices in faraway Stockholm.

This is the target audience for Cr Taavenikus missives in the local media.

And I must admit that he is a good politician and has probably felt where the wind of the public opinion is blowing. And adjusted his sails to catch the next wave lin the municipal elections.

Talga and its two pronged strategy with, 1) Extraction of graphite in Vittangi. 2) Enrichment of the graphite in Luleå, has been hit by the resentment of local population in Kiruna that cannot feel the love in the air.

If any of these integrated links in Talgas proposed operations fail there is no business.

So methinks Cr Taaveniku has read the prevailing political climate in the High North well. And is well placed to reap the perceived benefits of a protest vote against Talgas plans.

Only a timely interference from the Swedish Government can swiftly overvome the raised objections I am afraid.

But will do little to placate the anti forces that now besides the greeenies, also contains a resentful populus of pople that feel they are being robbed . A populus that feel that they should have been given a bigger slice of the jet black pie.

Paint it black, jet black

Beserk
 
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cosors

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The Liberals:

"The M-politician's attack on Kiruna: Banana Republic - should be forcibly managed
1711830254131.png

The only thing Kiruna municipality should be able to demand, according to Mattias Karlsson (M), is that you follow laws and regulations.

Now the Moderates' group leader in the Riksdag (government), Mattias Karlsson, is attacking Kiruna's municipal council after the plans to cancel Talga's planned graphite mine in Vittangi.

"It's like a mafia boss dressed up as a municipal councillor," he says."
 
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cosors

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jaja irre.gif

tenor.0.gif
 
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Diogenese

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Interesting development. I was sure so far that talga planned recycling of anode materials only in the context of processing it to graphene or coatings. Not in the context of processing it to new anode material.

The processing must include a step to remove the SEI layer (solid electrolyte interphase) that forms around the graphite in the battery. That is possibly a dirty chemical process (just an assumption, no idea, really). There probably is research somewhere to that effect but I have not looked for it.

The more important issue is, that at least to my understanding, it's impossible to fix the damage to the crystal structure of the particles. So the processing must include a step of filtering out the broken or too small particles (i.e. the fragments of previously normal sized particles).

All in all, it might be possible to recycle the material to some fraction. But it seems to me, that it's questionable if the process is economically viable or even cleaner than digging out new graphite or producing it synthetically. We might have a case here where recycling to new battery material is actually less environmentally than producing it new. Processing black mess graphite to other products like graphene or coating material seems more promising to me. I hope to be educated to the contrary though.
If there is a difference in density of the SEI, it may be possible to use flotation/centrifuge to separate it out from the "clean" graphite.
 
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scep

Member
It is a pity that politics descend to this low level again. We need the cooperation of the people of Kiruna and they can benefit of Talga's development in a sustainable way. Yes, the impact of Talga's presence will be big and long term. Therefor, professionals need to sit together and plan the area / city developments over the long term.
Talga should not directly be involved in city planning, but that they contribute via the normal taxes from the Gov is reasonable. The art of politics, on all levels, is to built bridges, not fences.
 
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Semmel

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Well, to all these that fear solid state would eat our cake (it will not), here is some statement from CATL:



1711992860595.png


Which spawned the responds, which was liked by Mark:


1711992920513.png
 
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cosors

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Semmel

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Doesnt sound like they are. This just re-inforced my opinion that we dont have anything to fear from solid state for the foreseeable future.
 
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cosors

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The Liberals:

"The M-politician's attack on Kiruna: Banana Republic - should be forcibly managed
View attachment 60055

The only thing Kiruna municipality should be able to demand, according to Mattias Karlsson (M), is that you follow laws and regulations.

Now the Moderates' group leader in the Riksdag (government), Mattias Karlsson, is attacking Kiruna's municipal council after the plans to cancel Talga's planned graphite mine in Vittangi.

"It's like a mafia boss dressed up as a municipal councillor," he says."
I have tried to translate the article I found as a photo as well as possible.

"Norrländska Socialdemokraten

M's top politician has strong words for Kiruna: "Should be put into receivership"
KIRUNA The municipality of Kiruna's plans to stop Talga's graphite mining in Vittangi are infuriating MP Mattias Karlsson (M).
"Kiruna is behaving like a banana republic. They are making a political statement against a single company in order to get a decision from the authorities. The municipality of Kiruna is not in a position to manage its own economy. It has invested over a billion in a bathhouse. The question is whether the municipality should not be put into receivership, says Mattias Karlsson, leader of the Moderate Party in parliament, to P4 Norrbotten.
The announcement comes after NSD reported earlier this week that the Kiruna Municipal Council's working committee had taken the view that the municipality should not continue with the planning process for Talga's planned graphite mine. Municipal councillor Mats Taaveniku justified the decision by stating that there was a majority against the Talga plan and that this should also be seen as a political decision.
The majority has now decided to reject the detailed plan for Talga. "To save time and have more time for other planning matters, we are stopping the planning process altogether," Mats Taaveniku told NSD.
He himself had voted in favour, but was outvoted in his own party.
The value of preserving the area is higher than the minerals that can be mined there. We realise that this is a short-term measure that will last 25 years. It is reprehensible to affect such large and beautiful natural areas for such a short time. But it is also a political statement. The municipality will have higher costs with this settlement, among other things for emergency services and investments in infrastructure, but we will not get anything back from the minerals extracted here, Taaveniku told NSD and continued: "This is a signal, especially to the state, that we are sceptical about new settlements until we get a fairer distribution of the values that we will hitch here, based on the natural resources available here. Kiruna municipality has the highest municipal gross production of all municipalities. But we get nothing in return.
Mattias Karlsson believes that this is pure extortion.
"It's like a mafia boss masquerading as a Norrbotten councillor. This is not responsible municipal behaviour," he tells P4 Norrbotten.
Mats Taaveniku reacts strongly to Karlsson's attack. That is an unusually incompetent and thoughtless statement. It borders on slander," says Mats Taaveniku to P4 Norrbotten and continues: "The decision will be discussed at the committee meeting on 8 April.""

Kiruna.jpg


...to boycott this project in order to persuade the government to transfer more money, completely ignoring what this means in macro terms.
They should not be surprised, neither by Talga's reaction after two years of boycott nor by the heated reactions from their own and other parties.
 
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Semmel

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Thx! we now have a date for the decision on the detailed plan.. 8th of April :) So a week from now. Thank you! That is very nice to know ;)
 
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cosors

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Translated with DeepL:

The decision will be taken at the city council meeting on 8 April.

What are the benefits?
I understand that they will decide what they have voted against on the 8th.
It would be more interesting to know how the matter is now being formally dealt with by the government.
 
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Semmel

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Translated with DeepL:

The decision will be taken at the city council meeting on 8 April.

What are the benefits?
I understand that they will decide what they have voted against on the 8th.
It would be more interesting to know how the matter is now being formally dealt with by the government.

ahh thats the municipality, thought its the government making the decision. Then ignore my comment!
 

JNRB

Regular
I have tried to translate the article I found as a photo as well as possible.

"Norrländska Socialdemokraten

M's top politician has strong words for Kiruna: "Should be put into receivership"
KIRUNA The municipality of Kiruna's plans to stop Talga's graphite mining in Vittangi are infuriating MP Mattias Karlsson (M).
"Kiruna is behaving like a banana republic. They are making a political statement against a single company in order to get a decision from the authorities. The municipality of Kiruna is not in a position to manage its own economy. It has invested over a billion in a bathhouse. The question is whether the municipality should not be put into receivership, says Mattias Karlsson, leader of the Moderate Party in parliament, to P4 Norrbotten.
The announcement comes after NSD reported earlier this week that the Kiruna Municipal Council's working committee had taken the view that the municipality should not continue with the planning process for Talga's planned graphite mine. Municipal councillor Mats Taaveniku justified the decision by stating that there was a majority against the Talga plan and that this should also be seen as a political decision.
The majority has now decided to reject the detailed plan for Talga. "To save time and have more time for other planning matters, we are stopping the planning process altogether," Mats Taaveniku told NSD.
He himself had voted in favour, but was outvoted in his own party.
The value of preserving the area is higher than the minerals that can be mined there. We realise that this is a short-term measure that will last 25 years. It is reprehensible to affect such large and beautiful natural areas for such a short time. But it is also a political statement. The municipality will have higher costs with this settlement, among other things for emergency services and investments in infrastructure, but we will not get anything back from the minerals extracted here, Taaveniku told NSD and continued: "This is a signal, especially to the state, that we are sceptical about new settlements until we get a fairer distribution of the values that we will hitch here, based on the natural resources available here. Kiruna municipality has the highest municipal gross production of all municipalities. But we get nothing in return.
Mattias Karlsson believes that this is pure extortion.
"It's like a mafia boss masquerading as a Norrbotten councillor. This is not responsible municipal behaviour," he tells P4 Norrbotten.
Mats Taaveniku reacts strongly to Karlsson's attack. That is an unusually incompetent and thoughtless statement. It borders on slander," says Mats Taaveniku to P4 Norrbotten and continues: "The decision will be discussed at the committee meeting on 8 April.""

View attachment 60164


...to boycott this project in order to persuade the government to transfer more money, completely ignoring what this means in macro terms.
They should not be surprised, neither by Talga's reaction after two years of boycott nor by the heated reactions from their own and other parties.
Why are they not demanding more money from the reindeer herders that are currently arguing they should have exclusive use of the land for their own businesses?
 
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