Thanks
AVZ Discussion 2022
- Thread starter GazDix
- Start date
Its funny, i was reading that article myself last night and was going to post relating to Chinas ongoing disrespect of international law.This might be seen as not related, but could be seen as Chinese attitude to International law and setting the tone at the ICSID hearing.
This issue has been ruled on and against China by The International Court of Justice (ICJ), the principal judicial organ of the United Nations (UN).
US slams China’s ‘reckless’ moves in South China Sea
Andreo Calonzo
Dec 11, 2023 – 1.17pm
Manila | The United States has called out China for interfering in the Philippines’ maritime operations and undermining regional stability, urging Beijing to stop “its dangerous and destabilising conduct” in the South China Sea.
Chinese and Philippine vessels faced off in multiple clashes in the South China Sea over the weekend as tensions continued to escalate between the two countries over maritime territory, prompting the US to reiterate its commitment to defend Manila.
A Chinese Coast Guard ship uses a water cannon on a Philippine boat as it approaches Scarborough Shoal in the disputed South China Sea. AP
The Philippines said its vessels were damaged after being “directly targeted” on Sunday by a Chinese coast guard ship with a water cannon during a supply mission to Second Thomas Shoal. A Filipino boat was also rammed by a Chinese vessel, the task force said in a statement.
China’s coast guard said the Philippine boat ignored warnings and “deliberately collided” with its vessel, which was sailing normally for law enforcement purposes. The responsibility lies entirely with the Philippines, the coast guard said in a statement.
The actions taken by China’s ships around Second Thomas Shoal and Scarborough Reef “reflect not only reckless disregard for the safety and livelihoods of Filipinos, but also for international law,” the US State Department said in a statement.
“Obstructing supply lines to this longstanding outpost and interfering with lawful Philippines maritime operations undermines regional stability,” it said.
“The United States stands with our Philippine allies in the face of these dangerous and unlawful actions,” it added, as it reaffirmed the two nations’ 1951 Mutual Defence Treaty.
China has laid sweeping claims over the South China Sea, an assertion that’s been met by growing pushback in the Philippines under President Ferdinand Marcos Junior, whose administration has publicised Beijing’s tactics in the disputed waters.
Mr Marcos has slammed China’s “dangerous actions” against Philippine ships, saying they’re an “outright and blatant violation of international law”.
“No one but the Philippines has a legitimate right or legal basis to operate anywhere in the West Philippine Sea,” Mr Marcos said in a post on X late on Sunday, using Manila’s term for the South China Sea.
Philippine armed forces chief Romeo Brawner Junior. who was aboard the resupply boat that was rammed by a Chinese coast guard vessel, said he witnessed the incident himself. “I was furious with what China did and I felt sorry for our troops. They go through this at every resupply mission,” he told reporters.
A group of 200 civilians from the Philippines had set sail to the disputed waters on Sunday and were forced to cut short their trip after they said they were shadowed by four Chinese vessels including two navy ships. The convoy, escorted by the Philippine Coast Guard, had planned to go near Second Thomas Shoal and parts of the Spratly Islands to deliver supplies to fishing communities.
The group of youth leaders, fisherfolk and media personnel decided on “erring on the side of caution” and returning to Palawan province after the “constant shadowing,” its organiser said.
Manila on Saturday reported that the Chinese Coast Guard fired water cannons at Filipino civilian ships near Scarborough Shoal, drawing US condemnation.
The US has pledged to continue bolstering ties with Indo-Pacific allies to counter Beijing’s expansive claims in the crucial waterway. The Philippines has strengthened its longstanding defence alliance with Washington, expanding access for American soldiers and holding joint patrols in contested waters.
Clearly , China dont give a shit, they have been bullying Phillipines ,Aussie and other countries navy positions in the south china sea for ages......they think they own it all, they are a rule upon themselves, which is why its vitally important that the west continue to shame them internationally , fight for their rights, seek alternative trade and supply chains elsewhere and hurt them where it counts most.........chinas failing economy.
Its happening with rare earths ...
https://qz.com/how-the-west-is-reducing-china-rare-earth-dependence-1850232930
And the battle must continue with lithium aka Manono
imo
This another part of the puzzle...
Is China Still a Developing Country?
FILE - An aerial view shows highways and buildings in Shanghai, China, March 30, 2022.
WASHINGTON —
Whether China is a developing or developed nation has long been a source of debate among researchers and China experts — especially as China has risen to become the world's second largest economy and a global manufacturing powerhouse.
At the recent summit of the BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) in Johannesburg, Chinese leader Xi Jinping said "China has been and will always remain a member of [the] developing countries."
FILE - China's Xi Jinping, 2nd left, is among the leaders attending the BRICS summit in Johannesburg, Aug. 24, 2023.
However, in Washington, lawmakers in Congress have introduced legislation requiring the U.S. administration to use its influence in international organizations to strip China of its status as a developing nation.
The debate may sound academic, but it has real-world implications. The benefits that come with the developing nation label include preferential tariff treatment from developed countries, making their exports more competitive in international markets. China also uses its developing status to justify subsidies to industries such as fishing and tech, even when many are effectively state-owned and have global impact.
The development status of a country is determined in different ways by different international organizations. The World Trade Organization, for example, allows countries to self-identify as "developing" or "developed."
Other international organizations like the World Bank and International Monetary Fund employ a variety of metrics to measure a country's standard of living, using indicators such as average national income per person, gross national income (GNI) per capita, life expectancy, and education measures.
Weifeng Zhong, a senior research fellow at George Mason's Mercatus Institute, tells VOA these are different ways of trying to measure the same thing.
"I think it comes down to, on a per capita level — meaning per person — how high the income is, so when the national income per person in a country is high enough, we think of them as developed country rather than developing country," Zhong said.
How China is classified
Beijing classifies itself as a "developing" country in the WTO. However, the World Bank and U.N. Development Program classify China as an "upper middle income" country, while the IMF calls the country an "emerging and developing economy."
FILE - A high-speed train traveling to Guangzhou is seen running on Yongdinghe Bridge in Beijing, Dec. 26, 2012.
Analysts say China is unique in ways that make it defy easy classification.
"You have a country that has many of the traits of a developing nation and has historically qualified as one and technically in many ways still qualifies as one, but has also many of the attributes of a rich advanced economy and in some ways a massive rich advanced economy," Philippe Benoit, director of research at Global Infrastructure Analytics and Sustainability 2050, told VOA.
China also defies classification on another commonly used indicator – energy consumption. "For structural reasons, energy demand, energy use in China is going to increase for a number of years until they achieve a level of development, a level of income per capita that allows them to flatten that," Benoit said.
China's burgeoning energy needs have spurred the state to seek resources in poorer developing countries.
But China often behaves like a developed nation internationally, some analysts say. Many developing countries, particularly Latin America, Africa, and Central Asia, rely on China for development assistance and infrastructure funding.
Benoit calls China a "hybrid superpower." He said its global power projection approximates that of a traditional superpower and it displays developed country traits such as its major investments in tech and high speed rail . It also has highly developed cities such as Beijing and Shanghai.
FILE - People walk past a China Energy coal-fired power plant in Shenyang, Liaoning province, China, Sept. 29, 2021.
But he adds, China also has developing country traits, such as the persistence of poverty in many areas of the country. In 2019, the International Energy Agency (IEA) found more than 35% of the population in China still lacked clean cooking technology and relied on highly polluting fuels such as coal.
"What we mean when we say developing is a country that faces significant poverty issues — where there's inadequate access to water, sanitation, transport, education — countries where the standards of living are basically, as a general proposition, unacceptably low," Benoit said.
Robert Ross, professor of political science at Boston College and associate at the John King Fairbank Center for Chinese Studies at Harvard University, told VOA the developing nation classification no longer matches economic realities given China's reduction of extreme poverty and its status as the second largest economy and the world's largest manufacturer.
"Many Chinese people acknowledge 'it makes no sense to treat us as a developing country,' and they will acknowledge that it undermines both the interests of the developing world and gives them unfair advantages in the American domestic economy," Ross said.
US-China relations
The question of China's development status has added to Washington and Beijing's strained relationship. In March, the U.S. House of Representatives unanimously passed a bill called the PRC Is Not a Developing Country Act.
China: We're Still a Developing Nation. US Lawmakers: No Way
On June 8, the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee also approved the bill, now retitled the Ending China's Developing Nation Status Act. It calls on the State Department to "take actions to stop China from being classified as a developing nation by international organizations." No date has been set for the full Senate to vote on the bill.
In response to the Foreign Relations Committee's approval of the act, Wang Wenbin, spokesman for China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, accused the U.S. of attempting to sabotage China's development.
FILE - In this image from video, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Wang Wenbin gestures as he speaks during a media briefing at the ministry in Beijing, Feb. 13, 2023.
"China's status as the world's largest developing country is rooted in facts and international law. It's not something that can easily be wiped away by a U.S. Congressional bill," Wenbin said at a June 9 press conference. He added, "It's not up to the U.S. to decide whether China is a developing country."
Ross said China's development status "is not a very important question," but rather a political issue between two competing superpowers.
"China is resisting American efforts to improve American competitiveness against China, and so with that, the United States has a trade war and a tech war to undermine China's economic development and its technological development. For China's part — it's the part that's competing with the United States — it's going to use every instrument available to improve its own position."
With many developing nations benefiting from Chinese investments and trade, Ross said these countries are unlikely to endorse efforts by the U.S. to change China's development status, especially since they see this issue as a political war of words between the two superpowers.
Zijin advertising for 30 expat supervisory types for Manono suggests they are not anticipating stopping their activities in the northern tenement anytime soon, despite ICSID's emergency injunctions (hopefully) imminently coming into play - stipulating a halt of all non-Dathcom development of Manono.
Let's hope the DRC government are more concerned of the potential implications and insist on a pause whilst negotiating a way forward.
Let's hope the DRC government are more concerned of the potential implications and insist on a pause whilst negotiating a way forward.
Cumquat Cap
Regular
Roon, can you please head back to hotcrapper and publicly tell our detractors we're ready to settle please?
That will bode well at the negotiating table
That will bode well at the negotiating table
D
Deleted member 2378
Guest
Do you know how big our chances are to get the measures? I bloody hope zijin don’t make it that the measures get rejected
9cardomaha
Regular
95%+. We have ICC measures already granted as precedence, current ICSID arguments from DRC echo the ones that Cominiere used at ICC.
DLA are using the same arguments, plus some additional content based on the mining code against DRC, with added ICC precedence. All very solid in legal terms. We are seeking a protection of the status quo which is to maintain the current state until ICSID and ICC issue final verdicts, which is the duty of the tribunal.
Cumquat Cap
Regular
ICSID hearing was overnight last night, correct.
Hopefully we stuck it right to those pricks
Hopefully we stuck it right to those pricks
Hopefully we get an announcement today on when the verdict will be.
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Carlos Danger
Top 20
The DRC government got more law firms representing them than there are rappers in the wu tang clan
They stop getting paid if we get the licence so there is no chance this ends anytime soon without AVZ giving up the north imo
LOCKY82
Regular
Why give it up?! If they want it they should have to pay something!! Legally it is ours isn't it!?!?
Carlos Danger
Top 20
I think the quickest and most harmonious way out of this shitshow is to negotiate a deal on the north under the old split where we get a free carried minority ownership percentage of Manono Lithium with a deal to share the power plant
So we end up with 51% or 66% of the south and around 15% of the north at no cost allowing us to still have long term exposure to the entire deposit
From information available we gave up the north under the original split. Dathcom submitted a waiver and mining code says this means the area ceded automatically goes back to the state for the tender process. Not that the DRC government have any intention of allowing anyone but Zijin to have it.
Allegedly management have supporting documents that say we keep the north but so far they are yet to surface. Although this contradicts the claim that we will be part of a JV for the north in the May 4th 2022 announcement for the mining licence decree.
Our entire case at the ICSID is about the survival of our acquired rights which is a PE for the south only. Yes the DRC government could overrule this and grant a PE for the entire 13359 in accordance with the mining code but they haven't in the last 19 months. And I don't think they have any intention of ever changing that.
Nigel dropping that quote about sitting down to do a deal on the north in the new year wasn't accidental imo
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Retrobyte
Hates a beer
One of them is a former French justice minister
Agree. Time and money also not on our side . I think 8 rigs drilling CDL is a big enough hint as to which way this is going .
I thought it is pretty obvious, whatever happens Nigel will have to sit down to do a deal.
The court cases are to stop Zijin/ Cominiere in their track and improve AVZ's negotiating position.
I thought also the purpose of the ICSID is to bring the parties to the negotiating table, with a stick behind the door, just in case.
Legally fighting for financial damages is a last resort, just in case the DRC wishes to give a big fat finger.
I don't know if the DRC can afford that, too many other repercussions highly likely.
All imo.
The court cases are to stop Zijin/ Cominiere in their track and improve AVZ's negotiating position.
I thought also the purpose of the ICSID is to bring the parties to the negotiating table, with a stick behind the door, just in case.
Legally fighting for financial damages is a last resort, just in case the DRC wishes to give a big fat finger.
I don't know if the DRC can afford that, too many other repercussions highly likely.
All imo.
And she is as crook as Nicolas Zarkozy
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