I agree about the structure of the graphite being degraded overtime as being the hardest problem for recycling, at least based on my limited understanding, so I share you skepticism Semmel. At the very least, I'm confused.Thx for the commentary DAH! And I would never call you an idiot, that term I reserve for myself as I get plenty of things wrong with conviction
On the point you make, Mark makes it look like the issue with reusing graphite is the chemical cleaning. Which is a tough problem for sure but not THE problem. I can be completely off the rails here and I forget where I got the original information from, so I can't verify any more if my opinion is correct. But I thought the graphite crystals/particles disintegrate into smaller pieces during use of the battery and you simply can't put them back together again during recycling. Since this kind of damage can't be fixed, it appeared to me that it's impossible to recycle graphite anode into graphite anode. Maybe there is a way to filter out the good particles from the broken ones and use them, but I don't know. Or maybe talga is able to bake little graphite cakes that doesn't increase the surface area to much when recycling.. or the original problem is simply not true and I got this completely wrong.
In any case, I am happy to see that talga deemed to have found a way around it, I am cautious though because it is at odds with my understanding of reality.
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- Thread starter cosors
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This paper suggests that graphite can be reused in batteries under some circumstances.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/admt.202200368
The number of lithium-ion batteries (LIBs) from hybrid and electric vehicles that are produced or discarded every year is growing exponentially, which may pose risks to supply lines of limited resources. Thus, recycling and regeneration of end-of-life LIBs (EoL-LIBs) is becoming an urgent and critical task for a sustainable and environmentally friendly future. In this regard, much attention, especially in industry, is expended for developing recycling of cathode materials and the other valuable materials, but not much attention is dedicated to the recycling and reuse of graphite (Gr) from EoL-LIBs. Herein, the current status of EoL-LIB regeneration is summarized, with a focus on the recycling and purification of Gr, a state-of-the-art anode material for most of the commercial LIBs. According to the recent advances regarding Gr recycling, three major regeneration processes of Gr are categorized ,including
i) washing Gr with different solvents,
ii) thermal treatment process, and
iii) hybrid (chemical and thermal) treatment processes.
Depending on the source of the LIBs, and the method and quality of separation and purification, the recycled Gr can be reutilized as an active material for battery industries, including graphene production, as well as many other alternative applications, which are also addressed here
cosors
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"Sharemarkets gripped by panic amid fears the Fed just made a big mistake
The ASX and sharemarkets around the world are a sea of red as recession fears build in the US."
www.smh.com.au
The ASX and sharemarkets around the world are a sea of red as recession fears build in the US."
Sharemarkets gripped by panic amid fears the Fed just made a big mistake
The ASX and sharemarkets around the world are a sea of red as recession fears build in the US.
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cosors
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Japan's Nikkei 225 stock index sinks 12.4% as investors dump a wide range of shares
Japan's Nikkei 225 stock index plunges 12.4% as investors dump a wide range of shares
Japan’s Nikkei 225 stock index plunged more than 12% on Monday as investors worried that the U.S. economy may be in worse shape than had been expected and dumped a wide range of shares. The Nikkei index fell 4,451.28 points to 31,458.42. It suffered an 11.4% drop in October 2008 during the...
Thanks for this Diogenese. @Semmel let's hope your scepticism isn't needed
I really like this opportunity as clearly there's going to be a huge market, and if MT likes the numbers then I reckon we will too.
Semmel
Top 20
On family vacation.. will read when an opportunity arises, but can't promise for the next weeks 
hope paper addresses breaking up of graphite particles.. the graphics with heating to 2500 to 3000 deg C worries me, as it indicates a synthetic graphite forming process using recycled graphite as feedstock, which would ruin the entire process. But will read before forming an opinion.
hope paper addresses breaking up of graphite particles.. the graphics with heating to 2500 to 3000 deg C worries me, as it indicates a synthetic graphite forming process using recycled graphite as feedstock, which would ruin the entire process. But will read before forming an opinion.
Semmel
Top 20
I finally read the paper. Its a good overview of existing approaches. My impression is, that the main issue targeted at moment is the purification of graphite from the spend battery source materials. The paper discusses a lot of different methods which are mixed and matched in different stages and degrees. Think of a childs chemistry experimental box. Fun to play with but it appears to me that there is no clear process that is better than the others. Its a colorful mix of different steps which are used to get something out. Nothing appears to be at industrial scale when it comes to use of spend barttery anode material for new batteries.
The disintegration of anode particles is mentioned I think twice in connection to repair the damage using the high temperature re-crystalization using a simiar process as in the synthetic anode world. But it seems this is not always necessary or used. However it appears to be required for high purity applications, especially because it evaporates other residual metals, which might be in the mix after purification, completing the process. However, this just replaces the source material for the synthetic process and is probably only viable when subsidized significantly.
It appears we are not yet at a point where a clear winner is visible that can take on graphite in spend batteries. Hence the discussion of many approaches and methods.
If Talga has an edge here, good. But I dont have high hopes that this becomes economically viable. Sorry.
Hi Semmel, I hope your family had a nice vacation. Hope you didn't bump into any Swedish judges enjoying the summer.
Thanks for reviewing this and sharing your educated opinion. I can only assume that Talga has cracked this, as they've previously stated their purification and process tech has been successful and there's a patent pending. The fact that they've gone public with the new recycled Tal-C product suggests they're confident and MT says the economics look good. It's not going to be a good look if this had to be walked back and scrubbed out. From memory they're updating the refinery plans to accommodate the recycling and the Q4 Scoping Study will tell us more. Fingers crossed. Cheers
Hi Semmel,
Thanks for your comments.
I'm not up on the details of battery grade reconstituted graphite, but Neometals (ASX: NMT) is building a battery recycling plant with Mercedes in Germany using Primobius GMBH proprietary recycling method.
https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/a...82&v=fc9bdb61fe50ea61f8225e24ce041a0e155a9400
https://www.neometals.com.au/en/products-and-markets/battery-recycling/
Primobius patents:
WO2023186889A1 PROCESS AND SYSTEM FOR OBTAINING GRAPHITE 20220329
WO2023186890A1 PROCESS AND SYSTEM FOR OBTAINING GRAPHITE 20220329
WO2024121225A1 COMMINUTER, BATTERY RECYCLING SYSTEM, USE AND COMMINUTING METHOD 20221208
The process is limited to Li ion batteries which may have some residual charge, so the graphite is presumably in reasonable condition. It covers grinding, separating and filtering, but I don't think it covers high temperature reconstitution, but they may do that separately after filtering the small bits although Fig 6 shows them combining the two streams?
Semmel
Top 20
Yeah thx! If I bumped into any judges, at least I didn't identify them
was a nice vacation and luckily I didn't thought about the stock market much, and even much less about work too. So all around a success!In terms of Talga cracking it, I have no doubt that they have a working process, just as the paper presented working processes. But my impression from reading it is that the recycled graphite is either inferior or more expensive than new stuff.
Inferior if only cleaning and filtering is done and more expensive but better quality if heat treated to repair mechanical damage to graphite crystals. At least the paper didn't discuss a magic process that is good and cheap.
If Talga has something like that, great!! Hope it's good! But at this stage I remain cautious.
Semmel
Top 20
I'm not at a level to give an opinion on this, sorry. Looks interesting for sure but no idea how practical and economic this is.
Lithium centered , EV Focused.
UBS mentioned. Pure speculation on my behalf, but maybe that's the reason they trimmed their Talga position recently ?
In its dire forecast for lithium prices, UBS said it had lowered its outlook for electric vehicle sales, “with significant implications for lithium demand’’.
“With global automotive battery demand now up to 10 per cent lower through to 2030 (partly as a result of about 10 per cent higher plug-in hybrid EV share across the same period, and partly reflecting lower outright EV demand) this has a similar impact for lithium demand,’’ UBS said.
UBS mentioned. Pure speculation on my behalf, but maybe that's the reason they trimmed their Talga position recently ?
In its dire forecast for lithium prices, UBS said it had lowered its outlook for electric vehicle sales, “with significant implications for lithium demand’’.
“With global automotive battery demand now up to 10 per cent lower through to 2030 (partly as a result of about 10 per cent higher plug-in hybrid EV share across the same period, and partly reflecting lower outright EV demand) this has a similar impact for lithium demand,’’ UBS said.
Thanks Vigdorian. They have dropped back to round the April 2024 level of 5.6% voting power. Old saying of “Watch what they do, not what they say.” Interesting to see if they contradict and go back up to the recent prior level of 7.2% after such bearish sentiment…My thoughts is they are bullish, not bearish, but I could probably be completely wrong. A little tired of the ANNs back n forth, from their end
Interesting article written in the Econonist on battery recycling, shared by Sproglett & Blondeaussie at HC. No link sorry (paid subscription) and cut and paste of a long article isn't working so here's the last 3 paragraphs that touch on anode and TLG.
Other researchers are taking an interest in non-metallic compounds. The graphite in an anode, for example, can represent about half of a battery by volume. Although graphite can also be mined, most of it is currently produced in a synthetic form by roasting needle coke, a by-product of some coal-processing and petrochemical plants. As graphite must be purified to above 99.95% in order to make anodes, recovering it from contaminated battery waste is extremely difficult.
Pure and simple
Talga, an Australian materials firm, has come up with a solution to that problem. It recently signed deals with two recyclers, Altilium, a British company, and Aurubis, a German one, to purify graphite recovered from scrap and end-of-life batteries so that it can be used again to make new anodes. Talga will use a chemical purification process, the details of which are being kept under wraps while patents are pending. It is, however, known to be based on a technique used at Europe’s first anode-production facility. This was set up by Talga in northern Sweden, where the company also operates a graphite mine.
As recycling technology continues to evolve, a circular supply chain may emerge. That should allow more localised battery production and avoid supply-chain vulnerabilities. It would also reduce the overall lifetime carbon emissions involved in the mining and refining of battery raw materials—allowing the drivers of EVs to more rightfully claim to be green.
Other researchers are taking an interest in non-metallic compounds. The graphite in an anode, for example, can represent about half of a battery by volume. Although graphite can also be mined, most of it is currently produced in a synthetic form by roasting needle coke, a by-product of some coal-processing and petrochemical plants. As graphite must be purified to above 99.95% in order to make anodes, recovering it from contaminated battery waste is extremely difficult.
Pure and simple
Talga, an Australian materials firm, has come up with a solution to that problem. It recently signed deals with two recyclers, Altilium, a British company, and Aurubis, a German one, to purify graphite recovered from scrap and end-of-life batteries so that it can be used again to make new anodes. Talga will use a chemical purification process, the details of which are being kept under wraps while patents are pending. It is, however, known to be based on a technique used at Europe’s first anode-production facility. This was set up by Talga in northern Sweden, where the company also operates a graphite mine.
As recycling technology continues to evolve, a circular supply chain may emerge. That should allow more localised battery production and avoid supply-chain vulnerabilities. It would also reduce the overall lifetime carbon emissions involved in the mining and refining of battery raw materials—allowing the drivers of EVs to more rightfully claim to be green.
cosors
👀
sorry for the bold...
"Talgas CEO Martin Phillips has big plans for the graphite mine
After four years and planned investments of SEK 6.6 billion, Talga is still waiting for the announcement from the government if there will be a graphite mine in Nunasvaara outside Vittangi.
NSD meets CEO Martin Phillips at the top of the mountain.
- I think people realize the value of mining, he says.
Martin Phillips believes that the Swedish government will give the go-ahead for graphite mining in Vittangi. The picture also shows Liz Asplund, community coordinator at Talga.
The rain hangs in the air in the autumn-clad forest. Underfoot, blueberries are still visible on the blueberry rice. - As we would say in Australia, you see that the mountain ridge goes like a boomerang, says Martin Phillips, CEO of Talga AB. He has taken us to the top of Nunasvaara. In this mountain, and in Niska a few kilometers to the north, the Australian company wants to start..."
Talgas vd Martin Phillips har stora planer för grafitgruvan
Efter fyra år och planerade investeringar på 6,6 miljarder kronor väntar Talga fortfarande på beskedet från regeringen om det blir någon grafitgruva i...
www.nsd.se
rbPW
Talgas vd Martin Phillips har stora planer för grafitgruvan
Efter fyra år och planerade investeringar på 6,6 miljarder kronor väntar Talga fortfarande på beskedet från regeringen om det blir någon grafitgruva i...
www.nsd.se
sorry for the bold...
"Talgas CEO Martin Phillips has big plans for the graphite mine
After four years and planned investments of SEK 6.6 billion, Talga is still waiting for the announcement from the government if there will be a graphite mine in Nunasvaara outside Vittangi.
NSD meets CEO Martin Phillips at the top of the mountain.
- I think people realize the value of mining, he says.
View attachment 70972
Martin Phillips believes that the Swedish government will give the go-ahead for graphite mining in Vittangi. The picture also shows Liz Asplund, community coordinator at Talga.
The rain hangs in the air in the autumn-clad forest. Underfoot, blueberries are still visible on the blueberry rice. - As we would say in Australia, you see that the mountain ridge goes like a boomerang, says Martin Phillips, CEO of Talga AB. He has taken us to the top of Nunasvaara. In this mountain, and in Niska a few kilometers to the north, the Australian company wants to start..."
Talgas vd Martin Phillips har stora planer för grafitgruvan
Efter fyra år och planerade investeringar på 6,6 miljarder kronor väntar Talga fortfarande på beskedet från regeringen om det blir någon grafitgruva i...rbPW
Thanks Cosors.
Translation of full article:
Talga's CEO Martin Phillips has big plans for the graphite mine
After four years and planned investments of SEK 6.6 billion, Talga is still waiting for the decision from the government whether there will be a graphite mine in Nunasvaara outside Vittangi. NSD meets CEO Martin Phillips at the top of the mountain.
"I think people realize the value of mining," he says.
The rain hangs in the air in the autumn-covered forest. Under your feet, blueberries can still be glimpsed on the blueberry bushes.
"As we in Australia would say, you see that the mountain ridge is boomerang," says Martin Phillips, CEO of Talga AB.
He has taken us to the top of Nunasvaara. In this mountain, and in Niska a few kilometers north, the Australian company wants to start mining graphite.
In the environmental permit that Talga has been approved by the Supreme Court for Land and Environment, the mining company will be able to mine 120,000 tonnes of graphite for one year. The mining itself is regulated to only take place during the summer but is worked throughout the year, so as not to disturb the winter grazing of the reindeer that have their winter grazing on the land.
"We have formulated our mining philosophy so that we can coexist with other stakeholders," says Martin Phillips.
In addition to reindeer grazing, water has been the environmental issue that has been debated most frequently. To be able to mine graphite, water must be added during ore processing. Pumping will also be required to be able to mine the ore from the open-pit mine. The water used in the mining process will flow into the Torne River, a river system that has been classified as a Natura-2000 area.
The mining company has been given several points to relate to if they are to live up to their environmental permit, including purifying the process water. They will also, in real time, keep track of the discharges into the water and report water samples to the county administrative board every month.
Even before any mining has taken place in Nunasvaara, the company has announced that they want an extended mining permit for the adjacent area of Niska.
"We have test drilled in both areas and we see large deposits down to a depth of 250-300 metres, and there is more than what we have found so far," says Martin Phillips.
What also makes the graphite in Nunasvaara and Niska special is that it is of very high quality, around 97 to 98 percent of the carbon in the soil has been turned into graphite, and the graphite content in the ore is on average 23.8 percent, which is very high. According to Martin Phillips, this means that a smaller amount of electricity and water needs to be used to reach the 99.9 percent graphite content needed for anode production.
One issue that Talga has highlighted is that the deposit can reduce the EU's stated need for metals from other parts of the world, mainly from China, which accounts for just over 80 percent of all graphite produced. But in order for the company to make a major difference, the company will need to scale up the mining in Nunasvaara in the future to also include Niska.
They are also looking into the possibility of eventually switching to underground mining, given that the graphite deposit looks set to continue down to depth. The necessary infrastructure and knowledge of mining underground is available in the immediate area, so Martin Phillips believes there is potential to scale up production in the future.
He believes that it is possible to mine 2 million tonnes of graphite in a year, compared to the 120,000 tonnes for which they have been given the green light. The mine would then also need to employ more than the 50 who will work shifts to have ore mining at all hours of the day.
Since its inception, the company has stated that they also want to refine so-called battery anodes in a factory on Hertsön in Luleå. In order for the mine and factory to become a reality, Martin Phillips estimates that the company will need to spend about 600 million euros, equivalent to about 6.6 billion Swedish kronor.
But despite the fact that the company has two approved environmental permit notices, the mining company has not been able to start any construction in the mining area. This is because Kiruna municipality's politicians have denied planning permission and thus stopped the detailed plan process.
That decision may be reversed by the government, which has the final say on this matter. But that question is still being prepared inside the Government Offices.
"I think people realize the value of mining and that there is a local supply of graphite. I also think that the government sees the benefit of it. We also do not ask the Swedish state for resources and we have also been able to justify the existence of the mine with both a mining concession and an environmental permit. We can also show that there is a larger ore reserve that can be extracted and turned into batteries, and with a good profit margin," says Martin Phillips.
cosors
👀
Thank you!
Perhaps you now also have access to this specialised page. NSD and Kuriren and others all belong together. If you have an account, you can also read this.
Is this new? Sometimes with how slow things move, I can never tell if it's old news just popping up again, or actually something new.
This was a press release from the innovation fund yesterday: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_5423
There is information about the IP23 call here, which says results are announced Q4 2024: https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/eu-funding-climate-action/innovation-fund/calls-proposals_en
And Talga is listed as one of the projects! As far as I can tell the top of the table is for IP23 projects, and without counting them I'm guessing these are the 85 projects listed in the press release that are to receive a part of the €4.8 billion in funds (on average, €56.5m each).
But if this was announced yesterday, there should have been an announcement today? Or maybe not announcement worthy as we haven't actually signed the grant yet, and therefore there's nothing to announce (and no actual dollar amount that will be assigned?). I guess judging by the projects lower in that table, in previous calls some projects were withdrawn, others terminated, so there's still further steps before the grant is final. The timeline suggests grants will be awarded Q1 2025.
This was a press release from the innovation fund yesterday: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_5423
There is information about the IP23 call here, which says results are announced Q4 2024: https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/eu-funding-climate-action/innovation-fund/calls-proposals_en
And Talga is listed as one of the projects! As far as I can tell the top of the table is for IP23 projects, and without counting them I'm guessing these are the 85 projects listed in the press release that are to receive a part of the €4.8 billion in funds (on average, €56.5m each).
But if this was announced yesterday, there should have been an announcement today? Or maybe not announcement worthy as we haven't actually signed the grant yet, and therefore there's nothing to announce (and no actual dollar amount that will be assigned?). I guess judging by the projects lower in that table, in previous calls some projects were withdrawn, others terminated, so there's still further steps before the grant is final. The timeline suggests grants will be awarded Q1 2025.
From the FAQ page here: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_24_5424
If we fit into the "general" decarbonisation large-scale topic, these projects receive on average €120m each!