AVZ Discussion 2022

[Scoota30]

Agree with winenut about gathering questions for the crew at the next few roadshows

One question i am really interested in is some more detail about the Lithium Hydroxide facility. the PFS for this is done according to the annual report

 

[Kenno61]

Before I log off and so everyone knows.

I sat with 3 other holders prior to the RS having a beer and all holding pitchforks ready to attack.

Those who have received a message from me now know why we didn't bring out those pitchforks. They are ready though!

There are plenty of RS to come so you can all ask the hard questions plus the AGM.

I'm outta here

One of the things I took out of last night was Nigel talking about meeting Felix for the first time and the President said to Nigel "I have been looking forward to meeting you Mr Ferguson, you have the sins of all of Jerusalem on your head"! i.e. those who have been working against us had well and truly poisoned the AVZ well. NF said he was ready to let fly with a few retorts about those operators but kept his cool and didn't respond as he would have liked. Also that when Marius started to represent us he told the BoD that things were pretty grim and that they had done a pretty good job at shaming AVZ. However the Pres sent his people down to Manono who took photos and videos and spoke to the locals and reported back to Felix that AVZ have done all the work, are looking after the locals, sourcing local bricks and material and that AVZ are honourable and altruistic. Felix now understands what's been happening.

Another point NF raised was that AVZ were under the impression we had to carve up out a portion for the Govt's use only and that request was made under the President's name. When Felix found out about this request he said it was completely unauthorised by him.

I went in last night not with a pitchfork but open to listening, was confident that the BoD know what they are doing. NF spoke virtually off the cuff for over an hour, almost unaided by notes and halfway through I thought this is good. Everything was clarified, I understand the reasons for the bland ASX announcements (don't telegraph your enemies) and he reiterated my belief that he has 20 years experience in Africa and his eyes were wide open to what we could come up against.

One reassurance I have had during the last six months was the ASX's comfort with what the BoD were doing, there hadn't seemed any objection to the continuation of the Trading Halt, they appeared to be pretty comfortable with it and must be right across the issues. Last night reaffirmed that, Ben appears to have been keeping the ASX more than informed.

Am very confident of a bright future, although this halt seems like it's dragged on longer that bloody covid.

That was my pizza too by the way and it was delicious, pineapple wasn't an option !

Have a great day everyone

 

[Hemicuda]

One of the things I took out of last night was Nigel talking about meeting Felix for the first time and the President said to Nigel "I have been looking forward to meeting you Mr Ferguson, you have the sins of all of Jerusalem on your head"! i.e. those who have been working against us had well and truly poisoned the AVZ well. NF said he was ready to let fly with a few retorts about those operators but kept his cool and didn't respond as he would have liked. Also that when Marius started to represent us he told the BoD that things were pretty grim and that they had done a pretty good job at shaming AVZ. However the Pres sent his people down to Manono who took photos and videos and spoke to the locals and reported back to Felix that AVZ have done all the work, are looking after the locals, sourcing local bricks and material and that AVZ are honourable and altruistic. Felix now understands what's been happening.

Another point NF raised was that AVZ were under the impression we had to carve up out a portion for the Govt's use only and that request was made under the President's name. When Felix found out about this request he said it was completely unauthorised by him.

I went in last night not with a pitchfork but open to listening, was confident that the BoD know what they are doing. NF spoke virtually off the cuff for over an hour, almost unaided by notes and halfway through I thought this is good. Everything was clarified, I understand the reasons for the bland ASX announcements (don't telegraph your enemies) and he reiterated my belief that he has 20 years experience in Africa and his eyes were wide open to what we could come up against.

One reassurance I have had during the last six months was the ASX's comfort with what the BoD were doing, there hadn't seemed any objection to the continuation of the Trading Halt, they appeared to be pretty comfortable with it and must be right across the issues. Last night reaffirmed that, Ben appears to have been keeping the ASX more than informed.

Am very confident of a bright future, although this halt seems like it's dragged on longer that bloody covid.

That was my pizza too by the way and it was delicious, pineapple wasn't an option !

Have a great day everyone

Thanks @Kenno61

 

[Flight996]

You could email the company, others have and got a ticket.

You probably think it’s fine for JAG to do all the work, there are some here who provide a lot of info and some who don’t.

Not sure why you have taken it so personally, just don’t tell me tell me to pull my head in and then say cheers…. It just proves your a dickhead

This is not your forum alone. It has many decent contributors who are seeking the same thing: reliable and well researched information on their investments.
To date, and for all you many posts, you have contributed little more than juvenile ramblings and swearing. You have contributed zero research.
It's you who is the dickhead.

 

[whales]

3. Did someone ask what assurance Head of CAMI will be removed? They've tried in the past and failed. How are they sure this time?

3. Did someone ask what assurance Head of CAMI will be removed? They've tried in the past and failed. How are they sure this time?
IMO the core of the problem and out of AVZ hands but pressure is mounting from within the DRC .
FT probably now has been briefed and more than annoyed.
Jules A briefed and report in hand with a summons to Cominiere to attend court proceedings, which implicates DG of CAMI.

this sums it up.
https://twitter.com/DominicFurfaro
@DominicFurfaro
·
Oct 30

$AVZ
@MariusMihigo

@ChristianLukusa
- $AVZ last 5 years spend $millions and following DRC law to the letter. To let Chinese vultures step in and take from $AVZ will be a step back to the dark ages for #DRC. Look forward to hearing good news for $AVZ SHs and the #DRC as a whole.

Perhaps CAMI have seen what they are up against Without protection...... and know no where to hide and surface rights will be granted with ML.

 

[Ashlee]

Morning All.

I have gone through my notes and the below is the best I can do to make any sense so please don’t shoot me.

Nigel spoke open and honest in my opinion and allowed some to speak during his presentation which is rare. Ben and Jan also spoke during question time and provided feedback.

Throughout the slides I was able to tick off some of the questions we had ready as they were explained throughout the course of the night and by others who asked at question time. Those who do attend the next RS's will understand when they attend if you know what I mean.

Key Points

75%

Nigel and the team are adamant that we hold 75% by law with no concerns whatsoever

ICC

• ICC set for April 2023. Whilst Zijin have pulled out of the %15 with the mines minister (re video) AVZ is waiting to receive this formally by way of letter from the Minister advising just that
• Zijin are claiming to be a holder in AVZ and therefore have rights of which they are not.
• Zijin have requested that the ICC case is kept private and not disclosed to the public. AVZ have argued with the arbitrator and it has been agreed that the findings will be made public (embarrassment for Zijin)
• It was detailed and explanatory leaving me to have no question as to the bullshit and lies of Zijin
• Upon review of evidence by ICC, it’s expected my left nut will remain intact

ML

• The delay in ML has nothing to do with any court case, boatman report or $2 Tommy report.
• All 3 favorable opinions have been signed with the wait being CAMI who is colluding with Simon Cong and 2 others. The head of CAMI will not be in the chair for much longer.
• IGF report complete and sides with AVZ
• No issue with surface rights. Approx $240-$280,000 per year
• AVZ will not trade until the ML has been issued. A date was provided however to keep the Trolls on edge and guessing I will not be saying (I will put my pitchfork away until this date)
• Marius Mihigo is on the AVZ books and has been instrumental in lobbying the Gov. A meeting with the President was to occur today to provide the President and update. The President is not happy with his Mining Dept. It is clear the President is supportive of AVZ
• Southern section is where the good powder is. Not fussed about northern section.

4th May (the force is strong)

AVZ was made aware of 3rd party interference 4th May and subsequently reported this to the ASX and SH. The interference is Zijin/Simon Cong/CAMI

AVZ Announcements

These have been bland for a reason. So as not to give anything to those who are interfering as above.

CATH

• Our relationship is extremely strong with them. Whilst it shows they will have 24% in the graphs they are not interested in that; they want product only and there is a possibility that the CATH % could drop to 9%
• CATH have written letters to the President and Mines showing full support of AVZ
• CATH are not going anywhere

Boatman

My take is that AVZ are going to go after them in a big way. So, burn baby burn! $2 Tommy, not interested in

T.O

If a T.O is presented and if the board thinks its worthy then it would be put forward to holders. Nothing has been worthy.

USA/Europe

Yes, sniffing around so once the ML is issued expect large investments

If I can think of anymore or decipher my notes I will add.

Have a good day everyone.

Jag a very accurate account of the evening.

 

[BEISHA]

Can the members finally all just contact @zeeb0t and request that the troll - shorter’s be permanently removed

Including:
The Geist
ChrisU (R2D2)

And others who have continually trolled these threads and attempted to undermine AVZ in order to capitalise from their short selling. Don’t need all the actual information to prove what we know, just the members numbers and sentiment.

Otherwise this forum (as was proved yesterday by ChrisU’s constant posting) this forum will turn into the crapper and I for one will just leave

I just did..........now need other members to follow the lead.........today.

 

[TheCount]

Some juicy bits there.



May 04. optic
Minister confirming ownership (Congolese jurisdiction and RCCM record is to be respected)
Cong’s unsaid cohorts.

But the 9% for CATH proposal means 15% freed up for something else? Peter Allen might dance again?

I can say on Boatman, there’s a reason they didn’t upload the Lubumbashi court document. Wonder what that is. My Intel shows my version acquired from Cong is same as Boatman except for some handwritten parts that mine doesn’t have. There’s a lead.

Seriously, you have no idea what this Forum is about.

An important rule of TSE is to share information. Your cryptic and leading suggestions are childish and will always paint you as a dickhead. If you have something to say - just come out and show it. Your post above for example - and I know many of us LTH have seen the images, but it takes minimal effort to show the result of your research.

The reason for me saying is that TSE is attracting new members daily, and not all of them know let alone understand the back-story. Not everyone is a keyboard warrior and will research history (to their possible detriment of course) so helping them along the journey is a good start.

Start contributing and stop the divisive narrative.
TC.

 

[grassseeds]

I am surprised that many posters want a ball by ball description of the meeting. AVZ are trying to be low key and under the radar so that they don't telegraph their moves and give ammunition to opponents. As previously stated, AVZ are operating in an environment that has tribal connections, International associations etc, and getting the right message to the right people takes time. The DRC also needs time to sort out its structures to ensure that the DRC people are not short-changed. Nigel assured everyone that they have made substantial progress in obtaining the Mining License. He also indicated that they won't be sacrificing CDL.

The current drilling is looking very good and the results will improve the resource data. The proposed mining development may also change as some of the new section is based on a flatter resource with lower wastage. They are adding extra rigs to complete further drilling.

Nigel stated that RD was a better deposit when compared to CDL as some parts of CDL have more mica.
With regard to the shareholding. Cath are more interested in product and shareholding is not as important. Cath is extremely supportive and flexible. Major takeaway AVZ will not go below 51% ownership.

Nigel also stated that the original Northern shorter route for transport has the potential to finish up as the best alternative due to improvements to the facilities and further expected upgrades to the infrastructure.

As previously nominated, AVZ has not been sitting on its hands and they have obtained support from many groups to strengthen its legal claims.

Nigel and the legal team believe that their path to the Mining License is now pointed in the right direction

 

[Winenut]

Seriously, you have no idea what this Forum is about.

An important rule of TSE is to share information. Your cryptic and leading suggestions are childish and will always paint you as a dickhead. If you have something to say - just come out and show it. Your post above for example - and I know many of us LTH have seen the images, but it takes minimal effort to show the result of your research.

The reason for me saying is that TSE is attracting new members daily, and not all of them know let alone understand the back-story. Not everyone is a keyboard warrior and will research history (to their possible detriment of course) so helping them along the journey is a good start.

Start contributing and stop the divisive narrative.
TC.

A-fucking-men

 

[Bigorse]

Morning All.

I have gone through my notes and the below is the best I can do to make any sense so please don’t shoot me.

Nigel spoke open and honest in my opinion and allowed some to speak during his presentation which is rare. Ben and Jan also spoke during question time and provided feedback.

Throughout the slides I was able to tick off some of the questions we had ready as they were explained throughout the course of the night and by others who asked at question time. Those who do attend the next RS's will understand when they attend if you know what I mean.

Key Points

75%

Nigel and the team are adamant that we hold 75% by law with no concerns whatsoever

ICC

• ICC set for April 2023. Whilst Zijin have pulled out of the %15 with the mines minister (re video) AVZ is waiting to receive this formally by way of letter from the Minister advising just that
• Zijin are claiming to be a holder in AVZ and therefore have rights of which they are not.
• Zijin have requested that the ICC case is kept private and not disclosed to the public. AVZ have argued with the arbitrator and it has been agreed that the findings will be made public (embarrassment for Zijin)
• It was detailed and explanatory leaving me to have no question as to the bullshit and lies of Zijin
• Upon review of evidence by ICC, it’s expected my left nut will remain intact

ML

• The delay in ML has nothing to do with any court case, boatman report or $2 Tommy report.
• All 3 favorable opinions have been signed with the wait being CAMI who is colluding with Simon Cong and 2 others. The head of CAMI will not be in the chair for much longer.
• IGF report complete and sides with AVZ
• No issue with surface rights. Approx $240-$280,000 per year
• AVZ will not trade until the ML has been issued. A date was provided however to keep the Trolls on edge and guessing I will not be saying (I will put my pitchfork away until this date)
• Marius Mihigo is on the AVZ books and has been instrumental in lobbying the Gov. A meeting with the President was to occur today to provide the President and update. The President is not happy with his Mining Dept. It is clear the President is supportive of AVZ
• Southern section is where the good powder is. Not fussed about northern section.

4th May (the force is strong)

AVZ was made aware of 3rd party interference 4th May and subsequently reported this to the ASX and SH. The interference is Zijin/Simon Cong/CAMI

AVZ Announcements

These have been bland for a reason. So as not to give anything to those who are interfering as above.

CATH

• Our relationship is extremely strong with them. Whilst it shows they will have 24% in the graphs they are not interested in that; they want product only and there is a possibility that the CATH % could drop to 9%
• CATH have written letters to the President and Mines showing full support of AVZ
• CATH are not going anywhere

Boatman

My take is that AVZ are going to go after them in a big way. So, burn baby burn! $2 Tommy, not interested in

T.O

If a T.O is presented and if the board thinks its worthy then it would be put forward to holders. Nothing has been worthy.

USA/Europe

Yes, sniffing around so once the ML is issued expect large investments

If I can think of anymore or decipher my notes I will add.

Have a good day everyone.

Great feedback JAG, thanks so much for your efforts mate

 

[Der Geist]

am surprised that many posters want a ball by ball description of the meeting. AVZ are trying to be low key and under the radar so that they don't telegraph their moves and give ammunition to opponents.

Exactly. Grass seeds is spot on.

Seriously, you have no idea what this Forum is about.

An important rule of TSE is to share information.

 

[Frank]

Many of us didn't get a ticket, so pull your head in mate.

Cheers
F

I didn't get an invite either, I know, Hard to believe, but True

Until i picked up the Phone and said, This is Frank - WTF

Had one arrive in my Inbox a few Hrs later thanks to Jodie at HQ

Try it you might like it instead of getting your knickers in a knot Bro

Hope it's Not too late

If that doesn't work for you

Food for thought

Your Welcome

Relax

Frank

 

[Kenno61]

3. Did someone ask what assurance Head of CAMI will be removed? They've tried in the past and failed. How are they sure this time?
IMO the core of the problem and out of AVZ hands but pressure is mounting from within the DRC .
FT probably now has been briefed and more than annoyed.
Jules A briefed and report in hand with a summons to Cominiere to attend court proceedings, which implicates DG of CAMI.

this sums it up.
https://twitter.com/DominicFurfaro
@DominicFurfaro
·
Oct 30

$AVZ
@MariusMihigo

@ChristianLukusa
- $AVZ last 5 years spend $millions and following DRC law to the letter. To let Chinese vultures step in and take from $AVZ will be a step back to the dark ages for #DRC. Look forward to hearing good news for $AVZ SHs and the #DRC as a whole.

Perhaps CAMI have seen what they are up against Without protection...... and know no where to hide and surface rights will be granted with ML.

Maybe an answer to that question Whales is last night NF said that 1. Felix is completely across what's happened so far to AVZ's project and 2. Felix knows that the Americans (Piedmont's name came up) and the Europeans want to come to DRC to explore and he understands they won't explore and develop there if our project is usurped/shafted/delayed. The Head of CAMI would have a large bright red target on his back now.

 

[Flight996]

Tell you what, I just read your posts, obviously your genuine, I’ve re-edited this reply…. No offence intended, actually found your comments informative and sensible

All good mate.

Let's hope this AVZ horse comes home for us big time.

Cheers
F

 

[Strawbz]

Morning All.

I have gone through my notes and the below is the best I can do to make any sense so please don’t shoot me.

Nigel spoke open and honest in my opinion and allowed some to speak during his presentation which is rare. Ben and Jan also spoke during question time and provided feedback.

Throughout the slides I was able to tick off some of the questions we had ready as they were explained throughout the course of the night and by others who asked at question time. Those who do attend the next RS's will understand when they attend if you know what I mean.

Key Points

75%

Nigel and the team are adamant that we hold 75% by law with no concerns whatsoever

ICC

• ICC set for April 2023. Whilst Zijin have pulled out of the %15 with the mines minister (re video) AVZ is waiting to receive this formally by way of letter from the Minister advising just that
• Zijin are claiming to be a holder in AVZ and therefore have rights of which they are not.
• Zijin have requested that the ICC case is kept private and not disclosed to the public. AVZ have argued with the arbitrator and it has been agreed that the findings will be made public (embarrassment for Zijin)
• It was detailed and explanatory leaving me to have no question as to the bullshit and lies of Zijin
• Upon review of evidence by ICC, it’s expected my left nut will remain intact

ML

• The delay in ML has nothing to do with any court case, boatman report or $2 Tommy report.
• All 3 favorable opinions have been signed with the wait being CAMI who is colluding with Simon Cong and 2 others. The head of CAMI will not be in the chair for much longer.
• IGF report complete and sides with AVZ
• No issue with surface rights. Approx $240-$280,000 per year
• AVZ will not trade until the ML has been issued. A date was provided however to keep the Trolls on edge and guessing I will not be saying (I will put my pitchfork away until this date)
• Marius Mihigo is on the AVZ books and has been instrumental in lobbying the Gov. A meeting with the President was to occur today to provide the President and update. The President is not happy with his Mining Dept. It is clear the President is supportive of AVZ
• Southern section is where the good powder is. Not fussed about northern section.

4th May (the force is strong)

AVZ was made aware of 3rd party interference 4th May and subsequently reported this to the ASX and SH. The interference is Zijin/Simon Cong/CAMI

AVZ Announcements

These have been bland for a reason. So as not to give anything to those who are interfering as above.

CATH

• Our relationship is extremely strong with them. Whilst it shows they will have 24% in the graphs they are not interested in that; they want product only and there is a possibility that the CATH % could drop to 9%
• CATH have written letters to the President and Mines showing full support of AVZ
• CATH are not going anywhere

Boatman

My take is that AVZ are going to go after them in a big way. So, burn baby burn! $2 Tommy, not interested in

T.O

If a T.O is presented and if the board thinks its worthy then it would be put forward to holders. Nothing has been worthy.

USA/Europe

Yes, sniffing around so once the ML is issued expect large investments

If I can think of anymore or decipher my notes I will add.

Have a good day everyone.

Not all hero’s wear capes @JAG

 

[BEISHA]

Hi All

Can we all stop the personal attacks please.............a certain administrator is watching all this crap no doubt and its counter productive if we want to get back to a harmonious thread once again.


Discuss the STOCK...........not the POSTER !!

 

[TDITD]

So if CATH reduced to 9% what happens to the 15% they would lose?

Ours all ours !!!
I'm guessing this is Plan B if either of the ridiculous claims are somehow successful. We are still majority holder and the 'winner' pays their share of construction.

 

[Der Geist]

One of the things I took out of last night was Nigel talking about meeting Felix for the first time and the President said to Nigel "I have been looking forward to meeting you Mr Ferguson, you have the sins of all of Jerusalem on your head"! i.e. those who have been working against us had well and truly poisoned the AVZ well. NF said he was ready to let fly with a few retorts about those operators but kept his cool and didn't respond as he would have liked. Also that when Marius started to represent us he told the BoD that things were pretty grim and that they had done a pretty good job at shaming AVZ. However the Pres sent his people down to Manono who took photos and videos and spoke to the locals and reported back to Felix that AVZ have done all the work, are looking after the locals, sourcing local bricks and material and that AVZ are honourable and altruistic. Felix now understands what's been happening.

Another point NF raised was that AVZ were under the impression we had to carve up out a portion for the Govt's use only and that request was made under the President's name. When Felix found out about this request he said it was completely unauthorised by him.

I went in last night not with a pitchfork but open to listening, was confident that the BoD know what they are doing. NF spoke virtually off the cuff for over an hour, almost unaided by notes and halfway through I thought this is good. Everything was clarified, I understand the reasons for the bland ASX announcements (don't telegraph your enemies) and he reiterated my belief that he has 20 years experience in Africa and his eyes were wide open to what we could come up against.

One reassurance I have had during the last six months was the ASX's comfort with what the BoD were doing, there hadn't seemed any objection to the continuation of the Trading Halt, they appeared to be pretty comfortable with it and must be right across the issues. Last night reaffirmed that, Ben appears to have been keeping the ASX more than informed.

Am very confident of a bright future, although this halt seems like it's dragged on longer that bloody covid.

That was my pizza too by the way and it was delicious, pineapple wasn't an option !

Have a great day everyone

The impression of a “carve up” is very interesting.
Was this how $AJN would penetrate?

It’s a good follow up question unlikely to be answered.

This is not your forum alone. It has many decent contributors who are seeking the same thing: reliable and well researched information on their investments.
To date, and for all you many posts, you have contributed little more than juvenile ramblings and swearing. You have contributed zero research.
It's you who is the dickhead.

Agree, Moneybags needs to take a dip in the Newcastle Baths

 

[DiscoDanNZ]

Morning All.

I have gone through my notes and the below is the best I can do to make any sense so please don’t shoot me.

Nigel spoke open and honest in my opinion and allowed some to speak during his presentation which is rare. Ben and Jan also spoke during question time and provided feedback.

Throughout the slides I was able to tick off some of the questions we had ready as they were explained throughout the course of the night and by others who asked at question time. Those who do attend the next RS's will understand when they attend if you know what I mean.

Key Points

75%

Nigel and the team are adamant that we hold 75% by law with no concerns whatsoever

ICC

• ICC set for April 2023. Whilst Zijin have pulled out of the %15 with the mines minister (re video) AVZ is waiting to receive this formally by way of letter from the Minister advising just that
• Zijin are claiming to be a holder in AVZ and therefore have rights of which they are not.
• Zijin have requested that the ICC case is kept private and not disclosed to the public. AVZ have argued with the arbitrator and it has been agreed that the findings will be made public (embarrassment for Zijin)
• It was detailed and explanatory leaving me to have no question as to the bullshit and lies of Zijin
• Upon review of evidence by ICC, it’s expected my left nut will remain intact

ML

• The delay in ML has nothing to do with any court case, boatman report or $2 Tommy report.
• All 3 favorable opinions have been signed with the wait being CAMI who is colluding with Simon Cong and 2 others. The head of CAMI will not be in the chair for much longer.
• IGF report complete and sides with AVZ
• No issue with surface rights. Approx $240-$280,000 per year
• AVZ will not trade until the ML has been issued. A date was provided however to keep the Trolls on edge and guessing I will not be saying (I will put my pitchfork away until this date)
• Marius Mihigo is on the AVZ books and has been instrumental in lobbying the Gov. A meeting with the President was to occur today to provide the President and update. The President is not happy with his Mining Dept. It is clear the President is supportive of AVZ
• Southern section is where the good powder is. Not fussed about northern section.

4th May (the force is strong)

AVZ was made aware of 3rd party interference 4th May and subsequently reported this to the ASX and SH. The interference is Zijin/Simon Cong/CAMI

AVZ Announcements

These have been bland for a reason. So as not to give anything to those who are interfering as above.

CATH

• Our relationship is extremely strong with them. Whilst it shows they will have 24% in the graphs they are not interested in that; they want product only and there is a possibility that the CATH % could drop to 9%
• CATH have written letters to the President and Mines showing full support of AVZ
• CATH are not going anywhere

Boatman

My take is that AVZ are going to go after them in a big way. So, burn baby burn! $2 Tommy, not interested in

T.O

If a T.O is presented and if the board thinks its worthy then it would be put forward to holders. Nothing has been worthy.

USA/Europe

Yes, sniffing around so once the ML is issued expect large investments

If I can think of anymore or decipher my notes I will add.

Have a good day everyone.

Can't give that a big enough love heart, thanks so much for the good work!

Of course you dropped it in the middle of me doing a coat of paint so I'm going to have to skim a few pages but I'm pretty sure you have made a whole heap of us feel more confident with where we and our futures are at.

Fuck the haters, Cong, head of CAMI, ZIJIN, AFRTommy and bring on screwing the boatman and the shorters.