DiscoDanNZ
Regular
Always a possibility that this has gone to court in France because the DRC government have told them to sort it out themselves and don't want to offend Zin and Jin
AVZ Discussion 2022
- Thread starter GazDix
- Start date
Winenut
Go AVZ!
Totally agree
CATH and ZIN have two different agendas but they are both Chinese entities and will work together for their own mutual benefit.... guaranteed
jsbuser
Member
Because one party has requested international arbitration doesnt mean the other party has to agree to it right?
Surely the best path is to have the DRC Government sort its mess out properly before this happens.
I've seen these international arbitration things go very badly even against the logical flow of proceedings.
Surely the best path is to have the DRC Government sort its mess out properly before this happens.
I've seen these international arbitration things go very badly even against the logical flow of proceedings.
Dijon101
Regular
There is another way to interpret this whole thing.
DRC sided with AVZ and agreed that the disputed 15% would be sold to AVZ and not zijin. As per the shareholder agreement.
As a last resort zijin have asked for arbitration. To gain back the 15% they had acquired through back door dealings.
Uglybob
Regular
Any lengthy, draw out process would just give AVZ time to find a deal better than CATH. Might be a good time to reduce the exposure to China overall, even with the contract break costs. When was the current extension until for CATH coughing up the cash? Maybe as some point it simply doesn't extend...
Worst case then, the chinese gain 15%, but lose the larger chunk.
Worst case then, the chinese gain 15%, but lose the larger chunk.
Looks like a similar court case at the ICC as FAR Ltd regarding pre-empting rights about COP's sale of Senegal oil assets.
FAR lost it's pre-emption rights and WPL was allowed to buy COP's share.
Case is slightly different, but there are similarities.
The reason FAR lost was COP argued it didn't sell a percentage of Senegal oil interests, but it sold an entire subsidiary company, so there were no pre-emptive rights involved.
Here there are pre-emptive rights involved, where Cominiere did a shonky with DATHOMIR and held a meeting regarding the deal without major share holder AVZ present. Again another shonky, it looks like Cominiere appointed a person, who voted on AVZ's behalf. That is how I understand it.
Will Felix be impressed, if his 90% government owned company is on the world scene exposed as the shonky brothers, taking in account that he needs lots of World International Funds to develop his country?
I reckon Felix is pissed off with Zijin and Jin Cheng in particular to the extreme.
Will he support AVZ?
If he is fair and above board, one would say yes, however money speaks and Zijin, backed up by China, has very deep pockets.
TBH, I didn't like it when Nigel was locked up in WA with Covid and we saw pictures of Felix having little cosy cups of tea with the Chinese mafia.
But Tim will tell.
Maybe Felix will call the parties involved into his office and try to get this settled, before going the entire 6 months through court, with all the BS involved. Felix wants his battery factory, so Nigel has to be delicate.
That's only 39%.
How does that make them not have control.
Unless each shareholder has a seat on the board of directors (I.e. AVZ, DRC, CATH and Zijin)
D
Deleted member 1612
Guest
No one is going to be mad at that kind of swearing Winenut, you’re only verbalising our internal thoughts…
DiscoDanNZ
Regular
Nige could write Elon a letter:
Dear Elon,
CATH were going to pay us 240m for 24% of the worlds largest lithium deposit but their dodgy mates tried to screw us. It will cost us 20m to break that deal. Give us 300m and the 24% is yours.
Regards,
Nige aka Big Swinging Richard
AIMO
Dijon101
Regular
I interpreted it the same way, it's Jin Cheng is asking for arbitration as it's Jin Cheng who is wanting to negotiate.
Anyway, I'll admit I'm way out of my depth here and have no experience in what is going on..
I'll just keep reading all the informative posts here and try to keep a calm head.
That and gear up for another few months of work.....
Anyway, I'll admit I'm way out of my depth here and have no experience in what is going on..
I'll just keep reading all the informative posts here and try to keep a calm head.
That and gear up for another few months of work.....
Joe Biden visited DRC recently didnt he ?
A US participant would be the ULTIMATE FU to CHINA GOVT!!
In fact, if every country wised up and developed their own supply chains ( battery hubs/ manufacturing in general ) and were prepared to pay a little bit more for local quality and stopped buying cheap china goods, then with China so indebted v GDP ( 3 x evergrande time bomb ), potential recession, it will bring PRESIDENT XI to his knees......
I have been a liberal voter all my life, but this upcoming election, I am voting for ALBANESE.
PRO EV, PRO manufacturing, going to create a battery manufacturing hub within Australia,..........thats good enuff for me.
I just hope Labour can balance the books , I cant stand Clive Palmer, but his idea of raising the royalties for iron ore to pay off the trillion dollar debt is a good one, so i hope his votes are aligned to Labour in that regard and of course, I hope Albanese can be strong to China too.
Did i mention i hate CHINA GOVT ?
The Fox
Regular
Taking a different view of potential outcomes here should the pieces on the board have to change for the sake of avoiding long term litigation, I could live with the following scenario.
AVZ acknowledges Z holds 15%, AVZ could offer Z another 9% for X dollars bringing them up to 24% instead of completing the deal with CATH. (also assuming Z would have to contribute to pro rata 24% on the funding requirements)
I don't trust many Chinese companies, their track records speak for themselves, however in terms of being a mining company Z would be a better partner than CATH for the operation. Ivanhoe have done very well I believe in partnership with Z.
CATH could not provide any great mining expertise, they just make batteries.
Under this scenario, AVZ 66%, Z - (Jin Cheng) 24% and Cominiere 10%. Z could provide a loan off their balance sheet for all project funding (not taken up by ADB) and things would move very quickly, roads and bridges, Hydro refurbishment and plant construction.
Trying to find a positive here in case it is easier to go another way and acknowledge Z- Jin Cheng. No matter what AVZ does, it is going to be in business with Chinese companies, why not pick one that will add the greatest value.
Yes, it really sticks in my throat that Z may have picked up 15% for pocket money, that's a shocker, wish I could have done that, but don't have the dollars or connections to pay decision makers.
My overwhelming preference is Felix and friends weigh in immediately, arrest the corrupt officials that assigned the 15%, void the transaction, provide AVZ formal documentation to that effect and penalise Z also.
Yet, if that does not happen I could live with the above scenario and it would likely be a better outcome for AVZ. CATH would have to be happy with an off take only, but if they get the shits and run away, there's plenty of others to fill their off take shoes.
Anyway, I think there is a silver lining if things don't go the way we want and I'm just considering alternate scenarios if it comes down to having to acknowledge Z - Jin Cheng mostly to avoid lengthy or multiple rounds of litigation in different courts.
Cheers The Fox
AVZ acknowledges Z holds 15%, AVZ could offer Z another 9% for X dollars bringing them up to 24% instead of completing the deal with CATH. (also assuming Z would have to contribute to pro rata 24% on the funding requirements)
I don't trust many Chinese companies, their track records speak for themselves, however in terms of being a mining company Z would be a better partner than CATH for the operation. Ivanhoe have done very well I believe in partnership with Z.
CATH could not provide any great mining expertise, they just make batteries.
Under this scenario, AVZ 66%, Z - (Jin Cheng) 24% and Cominiere 10%. Z could provide a loan off their balance sheet for all project funding (not taken up by ADB) and things would move very quickly, roads and bridges, Hydro refurbishment and plant construction.
Trying to find a positive here in case it is easier to go another way and acknowledge Z- Jin Cheng. No matter what AVZ does, it is going to be in business with Chinese companies, why not pick one that will add the greatest value.
Yes, it really sticks in my throat that Z may have picked up 15% for pocket money, that's a shocker, wish I could have done that, but don't have the dollars or connections to pay decision makers.
My overwhelming preference is Felix and friends weigh in immediately, arrest the corrupt officials that assigned the 15%, void the transaction, provide AVZ formal documentation to that effect and penalise Z also.
Yet, if that does not happen I could live with the above scenario and it would likely be a better outcome for AVZ. CATH would have to be happy with an off take only, but if they get the shits and run away, there's plenty of others to fill their off take shoes.
Anyway, I think there is a silver lining if things don't go the way we want and I'm just considering alternate scenarios if it comes down to having to acknowledge Z - Jin Cheng mostly to avoid lengthy or multiple rounds of litigation in different courts.
Cheers The Fox
Fletch77
Regular
Agree with all of that Beisha, it feels like US and Europe are asleep on Manono.Joe Biden visited DRC recently didnt he ?
A US participant would be the ULTIMATE FU to CHINA GOVT!!
In fact, if every country wised up and developed their own supply chains ( battery hubs/ manufacturing in general ) and were prepared to pay a little bit more for local quality and stopped buying cheap china goods, then with China so indebted v GDP ( 3 x evergrande time bomb ), potential recession, it will bring PRESIDENT XI to his knees......
I have been a liberal voter all my life, but this upcoming election, I am voting for ALBANESE.
PRO EV, PRO manufacturing, going to create a battery manufacturing hub within Australia,..........thats good enuff for me.
I just hope Labour can balance the books , I cant stand Clive Palmer, but his idea of raising the royalties for iron ore to pay off the trillion dollar debt is a good one, so i hope his votes are aligned to Labour in that regard and of course, I hope Albanese can be strong to China too.
Did i mention i hate CHINA GOVT ?
View attachment 6207
They are all talking about critical minerals supply, but I can’t see the action. Pay up and have unlimited access to 1.5billion ton of lithium and keep it out of Chinese hands..
The money we are talking to get into a JV with us and fund construction is peanuts for those guys..
I just don’t understand how they have watched China move in and potentially get a 24% stake.
Winenut
Go AVZ!
What does CATH do then if they are shunted out of the arrangements?
Do they have an agreement currently in place that if breached or does not proceed could it open up their own avenue to litigation for possibly non- performance of contract???
What a shit show....
Xerof
Biding my Time 1971
You're a sly but sensible thinking Fox. 
Yes, despite my hatred for all things Z, your alternative does make sense. Ivanhoe don't appear to have had any issues with them.
I DO think they were initially gazumped by the deal struck with CATH, and possibly also with the FIRB decline for Yibin, so have resorted to the dirty tricks book.
Yes, despite my hatred for all things Z, your alternative does make sense. Ivanhoe don't appear to have had any issues with them.
I DO think they were initially gazumped by the deal struck with CATH, and possibly also with the FIRB decline for Yibin, so have resorted to the dirty tricks book.
The Fox
Regular
On this scenario, as there are break costs for terminating the agreement, the costs are known and would be factored in should AVZ terminate the contract. Litigation would only occur with CATH if we took their $240m and did not give them the shares we are supposed to IMO.
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