TLG Discussion 2022

[Proga]

@Proga, thx for the explanation! Learning stuff here

Yes, I can also remember a step change from talgas process at some point from the exfoliating approach. That stopped being a thing at some point and they startet using more traditional methods.

What do you mean by 'folding in on it self '? How can you fold graphite particle in?

By calibrating very precise machines. The mill will shape each flake to a certain size. Then the outside circumference is folded inwards towards the middle to form the spherical shape. I don't know how the machine does it.

If you look at the spherical in the top left corner of the 2nd photo from figure 1, you can see the edges where it has been folded inwards. Before they started coating the spherical, it's those edges which where easily broken off by the recharging process creating even more edges and causing degradation. This gave natural a bad rap when it came to cycle life. The amount of charge, lithium ions, natural uncoated SPG could contain/attract from the cathode side fell off a cliff after a certain amount of recharges compared to synthetic. Obviously the coating filled in the gaps and smoothed the edges so they're not as brittle.

Lithium batteries in vehicles are considered worn out once their charging capacity gets below 80%. They are either recycled or bundled together with others to form stationary battery units for wind and/or solar.

 

[Semmel]

I would like to understand more about chopping off these edges.. both why the lithium ions do it in the battery and how they process the particles b, folding it up. I have a hard time imagining. process that folds 70nm particles. Do you have a source where I can read up on the details?

 

[Diogenese]

By calibrating very precise machines which fold it in and roll it up to form the spherical shape. I don't know how the machine does it.

If you look at the spherical in the top left corner of the 2nd photo from figure 1, you can see the edges where it has been folded. Before they started coating the spherical, it's those edges which where easily broken off by the recharging process creating even more edges and causing degradation. This gave natural a bad rap when it came to cycle life. The amount of charge, lithium ions, natural uncoated SPG could contain/attract from the cathode side fell off a cliff after a certain amount of recharges compared to synthetic. Obviously the coating filled in the gaps and smoothed the edges so they're not as brittle.

Lithium batteries in vehicles are considered worn out once their charging capacity gets below 80%. They are either recycled or bundled together with others to form stationary battery units for wind and/or solar.

Hi Proga,

I don't know if you've seen this before. It is the Talnode Si patent which also uses spheroids.

There's quite a bit of milling in the Si version to knock the Si into shape and then add the graphite/graphene.



WO2020261194A1 SILICON AND GRAPHITE CONTAINING COMPOSITE MATERIAL AND METHOD FOR PRODUCING SAME

A method (10) for the production of a composite material (42) comprising:

Subjecting silicon particles (16) to a size reduction step (18) with graphite particles (20) in a solvent and/or in the presence of a polymer, to produce coated silicon nanoparticles (26);

Processing the product of step (i) with or without a binder to produce composites (32);

Thermal treatment of the composites (32) of step (ii), thereby producing a composite material (12) comprising a plurality of coated silicon nanoparticles, graphite particles and a carbon matrix, wherein the graphite particles are held within the carbon matrix;

Coating of the composites (12) of step (iii) with a binder (36); and Thermal treatment of the composites (38) of step (iv) thereby producing a shell comprising amorphous carbon.

[0016] ... a silicon and graphite containing composite material comprising a plurality of silicon

nanoparticles, graphite particles, a carbon matrix, and an external shell, wherein the silicon nanoparticles and graphite particles are held within the carbon matrix.

[0017] Preferably, the carbon matrix is provided in the form of an amorphous carbon matrix, a crystalline carbon matrix, or a combination of both an amorphous carbon matrix and a crystalline carbon matrix.

[0018] The silicon nanoparticles are preferably coated in the graphite particles. The graphite particles are preferably in the form of graphene-like nano-sheets.

... the composite material further comprises a plurality of few-layer graphene particles. The composite material may still further comprise graphite particles at greater than nanoparticle scale.

[0019] In one form a further outside layer of amorphous carbon is provided about the plurality of silicon nanoparticles, graphite particles, and carbon matrix, but within the shell.

[0020] The outside layer of amorphous carbon may further comprise one or more oxides. The one or more oxides may preferably be present in the form of AI2O3, T1O2, ZrC>2, BaTiC>3, MgO, CuO, ZnO, Fe2C>3, GeC>2, U2O, MnO, NiO, or zeolite, or any combination thereof.

[0021 ] Preferably, the oxides have a particle size in the range of about 20 nm to 1 micron.

[0022] Preferably, the composite material possesses a level of elastic properties conferred by the presence of one or more of the graphite particles, graphene, few- layer graphene and graphite nanoparticles that may be provided within the amorphous carbon matrix.

 

[Proga]

Hi Proga,

I don't know if you've seen this before. It is the Talnode Si patent which also uses spheroids.

There's quite a bit of milling in the Si version to knock the Si into shape and then add the graphite/graphene.



WO2020261194A1 SILICON AND GRAPHITE CONTAINING COMPOSITE MATERIAL AND METHOD FOR PRODUCING SAME


View attachment 39410




A method (10) for the production of a composite material (42) comprising:

Subjecting silicon particles (16) to a size reduction step (18) with graphite particles (20) in a solvent and/or in the presence of a polymer, to produce coated silicon nanoparticles (26);

Processing the product of step (i) with or without a binder to produce composites (32);

Thermal treatment of the composites (32) of step (ii), thereby producing a composite material (12) comprising a plurality of coated silicon nanoparticles, graphite particles and a carbon matrix, wherein the graphite particles are held within the carbon matrix;

Coating of the composites (12) of step (iii) with a binder (36); and Thermal treatment of the composites (38) of step (iv) thereby producing a shell comprising amorphous carbon.

[0016] ... a silicon and graphite containing composite material comprising a plurality of silicon

nanoparticles, graphite particles, a carbon matrix, and an external shell, wherein the silicon nanoparticles and graphite particles are held within the carbon matrix.

[0017] Preferably, the carbon matrix is provided in the form of an amorphous carbon matrix, a crystalline carbon matrix, or a combination of both an amorphous carbon matrix and a crystalline carbon matrix.

[0018] The silicon nanoparticles are preferably coated in the graphite particles. The graphite particles are preferably in the form of graphene-like nano-sheets.

... the composite material further comprises a plurality of few-layer graphene particles. The composite material may still further comprise graphite particles at greater than nanoparticle scale.

[0019] In one form a further outside layer of amorphous carbon is provided about the plurality of silicon nanoparticles, graphite particles, and carbon matrix, but within the shell.

[0020] The outside layer of amorphous carbon may further comprise one or more oxides. The one or more oxides may preferably be present in the form of AI2O3, T1O2, ZrC>2, BaTiC>3, MgO, CuO, ZnO, Fe2C>3, GeC>2, U2O, MnO, NiO, or zeolite, or any combination thereof.

[0021 ] Preferably, the oxides have a particle size in the range of about 20 nm to 1 micron.

[0022] Preferably, the composite material possesses a level of elastic properties conferred by the presence of one or more of the graphite particles, graphene, few- layer graphene and graphite nanoparticles that may be provided within the amorphous carbon matrix.

Cheers Dio. I haven't seen it. Looks very complicated.

Is this TLG's ultimate goal and why they're spreading themselves so thin? I think they're trying to increase the silicon content by controlling the swelling with a inner and outer shell

 

[Proga]

I would like to understand more about chopping off these edges.. both why the lithium ions do it in the battery and how they process the particles b, folding it up. I have a hard time imagining. process that folds 70nm particles. Do you have a source where I can read up on the details?

When you charge a lithium ion battery you have billions of lithium ions pour through the separator from the cathode banging into each other and the spherical graphite in the anode looking for a home in the graphite layers within the crystalline structure. Any exposed edges of the spherical graphite is the weak point which slowly get chipped away because they are exposed. If it didn't happen they wouldn't bother coating and baking the spherical graphite with carbon. It costs up to $1k/t and +$20m to build the coating plant and furnace depend how big the AAM plant is.

Watch the video in the below website. It mentions the flake which is flat is processed into balls but doesn't go into detail. I saw something a month or 2 back but didn't save it. I do mountains of research. I saw something like a concrete mixer/drum rolling on its side. The graphite flake is heated to 1000 degrees inside the drum to make it more malleable. The graphite rolls around inside the drum bouncing on the solid blades pushing the soft edges into the middle. Think how a blacksmith heats iron or steel to shape it.

Graphite is a soft form of carbon that is found as crystal flakes or as a mass. It is one of three naturally existing forms of carbon, which also include coal and diamond. Although each form has the same chemical formula, they have very different properties.

GRAPHITE | iTech Minerals

Graphite is a soft form of carbon that has a number of unique properties and is a key component in lithium-ion batteries.

www.itechminerals.com.au

 

[cosors]

Thanks for the explanations @Proga ! Maybe we should open a technology thread and bundle all the contributions there?

 

[Slymeat]

I’ve been watching the grass grow while waiting for the results of the appeals. And I’ve had to mow my lawn several times now.

Waiting is such a drag—the world needs to just let Talga get on with it and grow into it’s full potential. Otherwise alternatives WILL be found. The alternatives may not be as good or as beneficial to Sweden and Europe, but they may be good enough, and will probably come from China.

I notice that NATO is now considering admitting Sweden. Maybe that will cause them to consider the larger picture a little more, with a bit more push from outside.

Their decisions don’t merely impact some local reindeer hearders—whom I believe have been very adequately catered for anyway.

 

[cosors]

Better in this thread

WARNING! If you do not want to participate in speculation please close your eyes and ignore this post!

From a Finnish investment forum, so no guarantee. They are avatars there like us here. But who knows, maybe the most banal explanation of all is the right one.

"I asked the Environment Agency about the timetable for processing those complaints, because Talga has previously informed that the processing was supposed to be completed on 14 June 2023, but has been delayed. The answer I received was that the Swedish Mark- och miljööverdomstolen is (apparently backlogged and) has decided to resume the hearing after the summer holidays, i.e. towards the end of August."

"Kysyin ympäristökeskukselta noiden valitusten käsittelynaikataulua, koska Talga on aiemmin tiedottanut, että käsittelyn piti valmistua 14.6.2023, mutta on myöhästynyt. Sain vastaukseksi, että Ruotsin Mark- och miljööverdomstolen on (ilmeisesti ruuhkautunut ja) päättänyt jatkaa käsittelyä kesälomien jälkeen, eli elokuun loppupuolella."
https://keskustelut.inderes.fi/t/talga-ruotsalaista-grafiittia-sahkoautojen-akkuihin/41478

If he is right with his information then Talga should have passed it on to us I think. @beserk would you be willing to call the Land and Environmental Court in Umeå and the Land and Environmental Court of Appeal? I am absolutely not sure if he has called the right people.
Waiting for the next two months because prioritisation was to our disadvantage?! And you just have to call them and they tell you that? And no one got the idea to call them und give us the info?! Somehow I still have my doubts.

 

[Semmel]

It's unbearable that the court can drag the process on like that. Imagine an anti-mining decision maker can't find anything wrong with talgas approach and knows the appeals would be rejected. So instead decides to take no decision at all. This has so much potential to be abused, I don't like that at all. Or even worse.. imagine he could tune to give leave to appeal. But takes the decision 2 months later, which is then delaying the appeal process as well.. because it didn't officially start when it was supposed to start.

I hope this is wrong.

 

[cosors]

It's unbearable that the court can drag the process on like that. Imagine an anti-mining decision maker can't find anything wrong with talgas approach and knows the appeals would be rejected. So instead decides to take no decision at all. This has so much potential to be abused, I don't like that at all. Or even worse.. imagine he could tune to give leave to appeal. But takes the decision 2 months later, which is then delaying the appeal process as well.. because it didn't officially start when it was supposed to start.

I hope this is wrong.

I'm building up some hope for @beserk to clear this up by him calling there or maybe one of his brothers. I don't see why this avatar would lie. It's not an anti forum, it's an investment forum like ours. And they even have difficulties buying our shares.
But I could imagine he didn't ask the right people, which is what the mention of resuming the hearing implies to me. As far as I know the hearing has been closed for a long time and does not need to be resumed.

 

[Slymeat]

Delaying to the end of summer means essentially a full one year delay as no mining can take place during winter. If the appeals are turned down, I hope Talga has a right to sue for one year’s loss of earnings. Although it could even be worse if that one year causes potential customers of Talga to look elsewhere.

With the fast-changing world of the battery supply chain, one year delays are ridiculous and can unduly impact the business model of a company.

It’s like how insurance companies delay claims for old people or let them drag through the courts in the hope they will die waiting and hence the claim disappears.

 

[cosors]

Delaying to the end of summer means essentially a full one year delay as no mining can take place during winter. If the appeals are turned down, I hope Talga has a right to sue for one year’s loss of earnings. Although it could even be worse if that one year causes potential customers of Talga to look elsewhere.

With the fast-changing world of the battery supply chain, one year delays are ridiculous and can unduly impact the business model of a company.

It’s like how insurance companies delay claims for old people or let them drag through the courts in the hope they will die waiting and hence the claim disappears.

I wouldn't see it as that bad, if. We are allowed to mine 25ktpa if I understand correctly. And the warehouse is still full. The factory in Lulea is not built yet but it will start in the coming weeks I think. And we have seen how fast dozens of thousands of tons can be mined in a very short time. They only need to scratch the surface. I don't think at the moment that this will have a serious impact on the SOP start of production. It would be annoying, but not a show stopper I guess. All OEMs here have the same problem. And not a single plant from China is built here yet. And they have to deal with all those just like everyone else.

 

[teilenswert]

It will be interesting to see by when Talga is able to build its anode factory and reach the maximum production capacity that is actually possible. I'd be surprised if that's before mid-2025, and it's a thorn in my side that Mark hasn't addressed his idea of timelines (esp. expansions) over the next few years for some time. However, I am with cosors that the mining permit is negligible at the moment (this is also in line with what Mark said in the last webinar).

 

[JNRB]

It's unbearable that the court can drag the process on like that. Imagine an anti-mining decision maker can't find anything wrong with talgas approach and knows the appeals would be rejected. So instead decides to take no decision at all. This has so much potential to be abused, I don't like that at all. Or even worse.. imagine he could tune to give leave to appeal. But takes the decision 2 months later, which is then delaying the appeal process as well.. because it didn't officially start when it was supposed to start.

I hope this is wrong.

100%
If this is the case it's a fling joke.
Permit has BEEN APPROVED. The default position is is APPROVED. if they want a process to object to that then that's fine, but if it can't happen in a reasonable timeframe then it should default to the previous opinion being upheld.

 

[WheresTheMonkey]

Better in this thread

WARNING! If you do not want to participate in speculation please close your eyes and ignore this post!

From a Finnish investment forum, so no guarantee. They are avatars there like us here. But who knows, maybe the most banal explanation of all is the right one.

"I asked the Environment Agency about the timetable for processing those complaints, because Talga has previously informed that the processing was supposed to be completed on 14 June 2023, but has been delayed. The answer I received was that the Swedish Mark- och miljööverdomstolen is (apparently backlogged and) has decided to resume the hearing after the summer holidays, i.e. towards the end of August."

"Kysyin ympäristökeskukselta noiden valitusten käsittelynaikataulua, koska Talga on aiemmin tiedottanut, että käsittelyn piti valmistua 14.6.2023, mutta on myöhästynyt. Sain vastaukseksi, että Ruotsin Mark- och miljööverdomstolen on (ilmeisesti ruuhkautunut ja) päättänyt jatkaa käsittelyä kesälomien jälkeen, eli elokuun loppupuolella."
https://keskustelut.inderes.fi/t/talga-ruotsalaista-grafiittia-sahkoautojen-akkuihin/41478

If he is right with his information then Talga should have passed it on to us I think. @beserk would you be willing to call the Land and Environmental Court in Umeå and the Land and Environmental Court of Appeal? I am absolutely not sure if he has called the right people, if he has called them at all.
Waiting for the next two months because prioritisation was to our disadvantage?! And you just have to call them and they tell you that? And not even PEL got the idea to call them und give us the info?! Somehow I still have my doubts.

Hi @cosors the post appears to be 7 days old

The silence from Talga and the date of the post would give us an idea as to the credibility of the statement of being "backlogged"

Talga has to disclose immediately any material events and obviously further delays are very very material

I have somehow managed ( dont ask I dont remember how I did it) to get that Forum translated to English and I have become a member. I have asked that poster what level of seniority was the person he spoke to. Hopefully we get a reply. I have also directed them to this Forum in my post so we might get some likeminded visitors

 

[cosors]

Hi @cosors the post appears to be 7 days old

The silence from Talga and the date of the post would give us an idea as to the credibility of the statement of being "backlogged"

Talga has to disclose immediately any material events and obviously further delays are very very material

I have somehow managed ( dont ask I dont remember how I did it) to get that Forum translated to English and I have become a member. I have asked that poster what level of seniority was the person he spoke to. Hopefully we get a reply. I have also directed them to this Forum in my post so we might get some likeminded visitors

Thank you for the initiative! I had a similar thought but discarded it because I was thinking of an official statement. And there you make me aware of the crucial thing with the ASX rules that Talga is obliged to inform us.

I hope they are not intimidated now that someone has read along in their forum.

 

[WheresTheMonkey]

I hope they are not intimidated now that someone has read along in their forum.

I think they are fine as I have already received a "Like" to my post from someone on that forum.

Given that Talga lawyers would likely be in at least weekly contact with the Court and we have not had any ann from TLG I'm tending to discount the "backlog" claim since it surely would have been "backlogged" for a few months and not just recently so we should have heard something by now

 

[WheresTheMonkey]

OK here is our answer from the original poster he or she has just answered my question to him/her my bold

turola
3 min

To be clear, my comment was about the processing of the appeals. Talga's statement from 15.6.2023 stated:

The Court of Appeal was expected to provide a decision on 14 June 2023 as to whether the parties have been granted or rejected leave to appeal.

Due to proximity to the border Finnish officials are also involved, and we Finns could also send appeals. So, I contacted the Finnish Environment Institute because with them I can always plead that I am a citizen and tax payer.

So the info is based on what the Finnish officials know.

 

[anbuck]

The summer break explanation makes sense to me.

In Sweden, the court structure is based on a three-tier structure comprising the District Courts, Courts of Appeal and the Supreme Court. Swedish Courts do not sit in terms nor do they have any court vacations. However, the months of July and August are traditionally “light schedule” months for the courts and they tend to deal with urgent matters only. Most court personnel take their vacation leave during this period. Swedish courts do not sit every working day of the year but rather sit as pressure of business in the courts demand.

https://www.justice.gov.za/reportfiles/court%20recess_2003/crr_ch4.pdf

Maybe Talga hasn't announced it because they've only received informal vague communication from the court, no formal statements.

It's disappointing, but it's not the end of the world. As Mark said, we need the refinery more urgently than the mine. Hopefully no appeals were filed so there is nothing for the court to review during their summer break.

 

[Monkeymandan]

The summer break explanation makes sense to me.

https://www.justice.gov.za/reportfiles/court%20recess_2003/crr_ch4.pdf

It's disappointing, but it's not the end of the world. As Mark said, we need the refinery more urgently than the mine. Hopefully no appeals were filed so there is nothing for the court to review during their summer break.

There’s also a law which entitles workers to 4 consecutive weeks off during the summer.

The appeals court hasn’t made any decision since 6 July (1 week ago), so this is all starting to stack up unfortunately.

Prioritising menial appeals around swimming pools and outhouses before the shutdown over this critical national resource, what a abysmal look.

I don’t necessarily think this shutdown lasts until the end of August though. The Norwegian who is relaying what they were told by the Norwegian authority appears to make an assumption that the court will resume when the school summer holidays end at the end of August ‘‘…decided to continue processing after the summer holidays, i.e. at the end of August’’ however the school holidays (a mind boggling 10 weeks), aren’t the same as workplace summer shutdowns, which appear to be more like 4 weeks, or most of July anecdotally. In which case the court could be back on board in early August based on the last judgement date of 6 July.