TLG Discussion 2022

[Coolbeans]

For cars, cold temperature performance is not very important. During operation, the discharge of the battery and the work of the motor produce heat that can be used to heat up the battery and negate cold temperature impact on the charge retention. Even if the normally generated heat is not sufficient, using a small portion of the charge to heat up the battery deliberately is pocket change. The plot you show here @Diogenese is not realitstic in real world applications and the advantage of Talga for this particular aspect is not all that relevant.

I disagree, in the real world Semmel my friend cars will sometimes be left standing for days on end without being used. This is a real problem for any battery from memory, and I believe this is considered when MT talks about temperature issues.

 

[Semmel]

I disagree, in the real world Semmel my friend cars will sometimes be left standing for days on end without being used. This is a real problem for any battery from memory, and I believe this is considered when MT talks about temperature issues.

While the car is standing in the cold, the battery capacity/range will drop obviously. As soon as you start to drive though, the capacity and range will just come back as soon as the battery is warmed up.

I understand that people want to believe that the cold weather performance of Talgas product is a real selling point. Its flashy, I get it. But the problems of "batteries lose charge in winter" is a bullshit argument by the gas lobby in order to divert customers away from EVs. Solving that 'problem' by having good cold weather performance kills a straw man argument, not a real world issue. As a consequence, this is just a power point argument.

There are other issues that effect the range much more than cold weather retention of the battery: Driving speed, air conditioning, tires, etc. The impact of temperature management of the battery to reduce the impact of cold weather charge retention is not a big issue.

 

[Proga]

Hi Semmel,

I understand what you are saying, but we have testament from MT and Valeo that demonstrate that the maintaining of full charge down to at least 0C is not insignificant.

In addition, the launch of the Mercedes EQXX in January stresses the importance of gleaning all the battery energy available for driving the motor.

One thing which we do not know is how Talnode C performs at temperatures below 0C, so we do not know if Talnode C avoids the necessity for the heating measures you mention. But we do know that Talnode C avoids the need for them at least down to 0C.

Added to that is the quote from the Graphene Council:

"In freezing conditions Li-ion batteries usually suffer lower capacity retention and cycling efficiency, causing shorter run time of devices such as laptop computers and mobile phones, or shorter driving range of electric vehicles. Cold temperatures can also cause deposits of lithium metal to form in the battery, causing internal short circuits that can lead to fire in the cell, making low temperature performance a critical technical deliverable for Li-ion batteries1."

So even if we discount the energy saving, the elimination of the danger of fire is justification enough.

I would have thought cold weather effects the cathode side rather than the anode. Carbon is an insulator which doesn't burn and has an extremely high melting point. Fire in the anode side can only be caused by lithium dendrites forming in the anode which pierce the separator between the anode and cathode causing a run away chemical reaction. Cold weather doesn't effect LFP batteries which use both lithium and graphite suggesting NCM/NCA cathodes.

As Semmel has said, once the battery is heated the problem goes away. I've read where some of the solutions where having a small secondary battery to heat the primary before starting the engine.

 

[Diogenese]

I would have thought cold weather effects the cathode side rather than the anode. Carbon is an insulator which doesn't burn and has an extremely high melting point. Fire in the anode side can only be caused by lithium dendrites forming in the anode which pierce the separator between the anode and cathode causing a run away chemical reaction. Cold weather doesn't effect LFP batteries which use both lithium and graphite suggesting NCM/NCA cathodes.

As Semmel has said, once the battery is heated the problem goes away. I've read where some of the solutions where having a small secondary battery to heat the primary before starting the engine.

Yes. The lithium metal dendrites form when charging the battery at below freezing. As you say, this can puncture the membrane. This can lead to a short circuit which is a potential source of fire. So a cold battery needs to be warmed before charging in freezing conditions.

That is why the Talga picture of a snow covered vehicle and charging connexion is noteworthy. Given that charging time is one of the bugbears of EVs, cutting 5 minutes or more off is an advantage.

 

[cosors]

From an engineering point of view any form of noise and heat generation is in general terms a waste of energy. The production of operating temperature is an energy input that must be deducted from the capacity, even if the technology does not allow anything else at the moment. So if the battery is currently brought to its operating temperature by operation in order to restore the original capacity, part of the energy has already been lost on the way there or in the time it takes to retrieve the stored energy.
I mention the noise because it is always quite vivid for laymen. If a machine is louder than others with the same output it is more wasteful in any case.
____
Off topic: I exclude music stations here because it is the other way round and an efficiency in energy waste is desired. For example, there are music systems that produce the same volume or power with only 4 watts for which others need several hundred watts. I have been able to listen to a system and I adore it which, with two power amplifiers of 2 watts each, drove me up the wall. I have never been so impressed. It was only later that I was asked how much I valued the power. I knew it was efficient but I was still off by a factor of 10. I might get the speakers, which are very sensitive, one day. The amplifier I will probably never be able to afford or want. Per mono amplifier 120k€.)
[Audio Node Japan + LS => UK]

 

[Proga]

I just read the TLG CR presentation. TBH I'm more than a little disappointed and worried. I was hoping TLG to be further advanced. Supply of 60kt AAM over 5 years starting in 2026 is only 12kt per year finishing in 2030. The battery manufactures need a hell of a lot more than that. It would be lucky to be enough to supply Sweden. I was hoping for at least 45kt/yr by 2030 after all this take about mining 104kt/yr. TLG will only need 24kt. The reindeer can graze in peace for a little longer.

SYR plan to produce 100kt per year AAM in the US and another 100kt per year in Europe before 2030. TLG need to get a wriggle along. Oh but it works better in cold temperatures doesn't cut it and sounds more and more like smoke and mirrors to distract investors in thinking they'll get a higher price and not look at volume and timeframes and playing up to the locals. Europe needs volume.

I listened to the CEO from Valeo at the Paris Motor Show and if he is to be believed, it's go go go from now and there is no stopping. He also said the ones not well advanced already will miss out.

By 2030 SYR will be producing 200kt/yr of AAM while TLG will be producing 12kt/yr. No offence but I know which horse I'd want to be on. Too bad I'm not a little younger. There is a great investment opportunity there in 7 years. One of them will still be cheap getting ready to soar.

 

[cosors]

I just read the TLG CR presentation. TBH I'm more than a little disappointed and worried. I was hoping TLG to be further advanced. Supply of 60kt AAM over 5 years starting in 2026 is only 12kt per year finishing in 2030. The battery manufactures need a hell of a lot more than that. It would be lucky to be enough to supply Sweden. I was hoping for at least 45kt/yr by 2030 after all this take about mining 104kt/yr. TLG will only need 24kt. The reindeer can graze in peace for a little longer.

SYR plan to produce 100kt per year AAM in the US and another 100kt per year in Europe before 2030. TLG need to get a wriggle along. Oh but it works better in cold temperatures doesn't cut it and sounds more and more like smoke and mirrors to distract investors in thinking they'll get a higher price and not look at volume and timeframes and playing up to the locals. Europe needs volume.

I listened to the CEO from Valeo at the Paris Motor Show and if he is to be believed, it's go go go from now and there is no stopping. He also said the ones not well advanced already will miss out.

By 2030 SYR will be producing 200kt/yr of AAM while TLG will be producing 12kt/yr. No offence but I know which horse I'd want to be on. Too bad I'm not a little younger. There is a great investment opportunity there in 7 years. One of them will still be cheap getting ready to soar.

I appreciate your view from the outside very much! It's always an enrichment and we do the same with Syrah. One thing I would like to note is what makes the race with all the constraints and consequences very close to the output, think of margin...

=> We simply have the fatter one "."

chrrrm, I don't mean the length makes the difference

somewhere stood something of up 50%

 

[SoundandtheFury]

Sweden's Ministry of Enviroment axed. Thanks to Gvan on HC

'Devastating consequences': Sweden scraps its environment ministry

It's the first time in more than three decades the ministry of environment has not been a standalone department in the Nordic nation.

www.euronews.com

 

[Smarty13]

Wrong wrong wrong Proga you have not done your research well !! By 2026 TLG the same as SYR aim to be producing 120t pa of aam which all permits are in for and aim to be producing 1 million T/pa by 2030 which further permits are required, yes it’s been hard to get to this point but once mining expansions are the easy part

Our profit margins due to graphite size are unmatchable and location is unbeatable gold luck backing the other horse
Time does tell all stories

 

[DAH]

I always thought Norman Price was another one of your more bullish HC handles…..are you sure you’re not toying with us?!

On a serious note, I’d say 90% of Tesla references are rubbish and just shareholders wishful thinking/pumping. However, the most recent interview of MT and his specific reference to Auto OEMs wanting to fast track Silicon Anodes and it is now a “Near Term” technology rather than future tech and we’ll have more to say about this soon has certainly got me thinking.

Which other European Auto OEMs are pursuing LFP Chemistry in their battery plans, which MT specifically calls out as potential beneficiaries of the extra energy density Silicon doped anodes can bring to the battery? I can’t name any, but others may be aware?? Maybe this is where LTT/Foxconn come in given the scale of their ambition? Therefore, I think there is a strong chance Tesla is one of the few Auto OEMs undertaking qualification of Talga’s Talnode-Si, but whether they are the first off take partner we will just have to wait and see.

Talga does not need Tesla to be successful - the demand for anodes of any type is going to be so large. We just need permits to get over the line, finalise funding and the ability to scale.

Pretty confident you're on the money with your first sentence TentCity

 

[Proga]

Wrong wrong wrong Proga you have not done your research well !! By 2026 TLG the same as SYR aim to be producing 120t pa of aam which all permits are in for and aim to be producing 1 million T/pa by 2030 which further permits are required, yes it’s been hard to get to this point but once mining expansions are the easy part

Our profit margins due to graphite size are unmatchable and location is unbeatable gold luck backing the other horse
Time does tell all stories

@Smarty13 By 2026 TLG the same as SYR aim to be producing 120t pa of aam - I never mention anything about SYR production in 2026. I only compared TLG's planned production rate against SYR's by 2030. For the record, SYR is planning to produce 45,000t not 120 tons by 2026. They just received a $220m grant to pay half the cost of the 45,000t AAM plant from the US govt who want it built ASAP to help the EV manufactures qualify for subsidies . Under the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) they are pretty stringent.

SYR have started building the 11.25kt plant and expect to finish it by Sept 2023. They have given themselves 18 months to dial it in which meets the Tesla off-take caveats but it should takes less than 12 months. The SYR CEO said on the last Quarterly Teleconference they plan to have 2 plants producing 100kt in the US and Europe by 2030. They are in discussions to form a JV for the European plant so technically you could say they will only produce 50kt in Europe.

According to TLG's latest Investor Presentation, TLG expect to be producing 60kt between 2026 and 2030 averaging 12kt. Strangely there is no mention about the size of the plant. Everything is pretty vague.

Congratulation. You're the first person to ever accuse me of "not done your research well" involving graphite.

From page 15 from the latest TLG Investor Presentation. The second point is the pertinent one. Not sure where you are getting the 1mtpa AAM figure from. They plan to mine 104ktpa at 95%-96% contained graphite sometime after 2030. Maybe they'll add water.

 

[Proga]

I appreciate your view from the outside very much! It's always an enrichment and we do the same with Syrah. One thing I would like to note is what makes the race with all the constraints and consequences very close to the output, think of margin...

=> We simply have the fatter one "."

chrrrm, I don't mean the length makes the difference

View attachment 19621
somewhere stood something of up 50%

Don't get fooled by a couple of drill holes @corsors. You should know better mate. You are getting lost amongst the smoke and mirrors. All that counts is the C1 costs and the JORG (ave). SYR is currently mining at 18% (ave is 16% over the resource) with contained graphite of 17.12mt. They have a further contained graphite of 142mt at 10%. They don't mine within the artic circle or pay the miners the same rate as Sweden and have over 3x the economy of scale. They do have to ship their product a long way to be fair but already have a 350kt/pa at 95%-96% graphite mine in operation (just don't mention the strike) which is paid for. No CR, no further dilution required. The IMF want SYR to expand Balama which they are looking at.

What matters is volume and when. TLG have a very lengthy timeline to get to volume. That was my point. I was desperately hoping it was shorter. The industry needs it before 2030 not some mythical time after. The current Investor Presentation was the most definitive I've read from TLG but it was still vague. "2025-2026 Expansion to total of 104ktpa commences" with an arrow pointing up at..... nothing. Producing 12ktpa AAM in 2030 you only need to mine 24ktpa of flake graphite. 18ktpa would be closer. The time for falling for gimmicks and thinking TLG is special is over. You need to start analysing the cold hard facts (no pun intended). Specifically timelines. As you know, it's all about the length and TLG sure does have a long one

 

[cosors]

Don't get fooled by a couple of drill holes @corsors. You should know better mate. You are getting lost amongst the smoke and mirrors. All that counts is the C1 costs and the JORG (ave). SYR is currently mining at 18% (ave is 16% over the resource) with contained graphite of 17.12mt. They have a further contained graphite of 142mt at 10%. They don't mine within the artic circle or pay the miners the same rate as Sweden and have over 3x the economy of scale. They do have to ship their product a long way to be fair but already have a 350kt/pa at 95%-96% graphite mine in operation (just don't mention the strike) which is paid for. No CR, no further dilution required. The IMF want SYR to expand Balama which they are looking at.

What matters is volume and when. TLG have a very lengthy timeline to get to volume. That was my point. I was desperately hoping it was shorter. The industry needs it before 2030 not some mythical time after. The current Investor Presentation was the most definitive I've read from TLG but it was still vague. "2025-2026 Expansion to total of 104ktpa commences" with an arrow pointing up at..... nothing. Producing 12ktpa AAM in 2030 you only need to mine 24ktpa of flake graphite. 18ktpa would be closer. The time for falling for gimmicks and thinking TLG is special is over. You need to start analysing the cold hard facts (no pun intended). Specifically timelines. As you know, it's all about the length and TLG sure does have a long one

View attachment 19906

It is not just any holes but the JORC compliant report. But it is a point that we now both seem to have the longer one.

Drilling extends high grade graphite in Sweden
20.09.2022
ASX Announcements
Resources & Exploration

 

[cosors]

 

[Semmel]

View attachment 19954

Looks like reduction in short shares was eaten by the market without any impact on the share price. As I was saying multiple times before, it does not appear that shorts have a hard time closing in these volumes at all. Dont give these leeches so much appreciation.

 

[Slymeat]

Talga’s CEO Europe, Martin Phillips, is on the RechargeEurope #Batteries4EU Roundtable: 'Strengthening European resilience upstream in the battery value chain'. Hosted by Member of the European Parliament, Hildegard Bentele, in Brussels Thursday 27 October, 2pm CET.

It’s good to see our cause being pushed to the wider European Union which, combined with Critical Raw Materials Act, the may hopefully bare some weight on Sweden and help move things along With permits.

Strengthening European resilience upstream in the battery value chain | 27 October 2022 | Brussels & ONLINE​

#Batteries4EU Roundtable: Strengthening European resilience upstream in the battery value chain

This event is hosted by Member of the European Parliament, Hildegard Bentele, and will take place on 27 October, from 14:00-15:30, as an hybrid event.

This event will feature discussions on the upcoming Critical Raw Materials Act, especially exploring the prerequisites needed to diversify the supply of battery raw materials, strengthen European resilience upstream in the battery value chain and decrease dependencies. It will further shed light on the challenges for the rollout of EVs and seek tangible solutions, including by addressing policy coherence.

We envisage a 90-minute workshop held in hybrid format, in Brussels and online. It will feature speakers from the European Commission, the European Parliament, the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Climate Action the Portuguese Permanent Representation, RECHARGE members, Eurometaux, as well as Transport & Environment.

Onsite seats are limited. For online attendance, please RSVP here. Upon registration you will receive an automated email by WebEx containing the dial-in details.

Speakers:
- Hildegard Bentele, ITRE Committee member & host of the event
- Daniel Cios, Policy Officer, DG GROW Unit I1, European Commission
- Martin Phillips, CEO Europe, Talga
- Torsten Brandenburg, Department New drive technologies, electromobility, environmental innovations, Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Climate Action, Germany
- Paulo Alexandre Ferreira, Head of the Internal Market and Industrial Policy Unit, Permanent Representation of Portugal
- Migle Bluseviciute, Senior Manager Mobility Advocacy, Industry Affairs, BASF
- Cécile Fournier, Battery Life Cycle Expert, Renault Group
- Julia Poliscanova, Senior Director, Vehicles and E-mobility, Transport & Environment (T&E)
- Kamila Slupek, Sustainability Director, Eurometaux
- Claude Chanson, General Manager, RECHARGE

 

[WheresTheMonkey]

OK so @Proga stated this................

"According to TLG's latest Investor Presentation, TLG expect to be producing 60kt between 2026 and 2030 averaging 12kt. Strangely there is no mention about the size of the plant. Everything is pretty vague.

From page 15 from the latest TLG Investor Presentation. The second point is the pertinent one. Not sure where you are getting the 1mtpa AAM figure from. They plan to mine 104ktpa at 95%-96% contained graphite sometime after 2030. Maybe they'll add water."
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'm not sure what Proga is banging on about.

It's pretty clear to me that the initial Vittangi production is 19.5ktpa (say 20ktpa) from 2024 hence the lighter shade of blue in the diagram on page 24 of the Presentation. Then the dark blue dot represents the expansion (84ktpa) to a combined total of 104 ktpa from 2025/2026.

Why is he banging on about just 12kpa 2026 to 2030 ?

We all know ACC is only taking 60% of the initial 19.5K.(i.e. 12kpa)

Is he confused or am I missing something ??????????????????????

 

[WheresTheMonkey]

OK so Proga also stated this................

I just read the TLG CR presentation. TBH I'm more than a little disappointed and worried. I was hoping TLG to be further advanced. Supply of 60kt AAM over 5 years starting in 2026 is only 12kt per year finishing in 2030. The battery manufactures need a hell of a lot more than that. It would be lucky to be enough to supply Sweden. I was hoping for at least 45kt/yr by 2030 after all this take about mining 104kt/yr. TLG will only need 24kt. The reindeer can graze in peace for a little longer.

OK mystery solved.

I'm not missing anything...........................Proga is

 

[TentCity]

OK so Proga also stated this................

I just read the TLG CR presentation. TBH I'm more than a little disappointed and worried. I was hoping TLG to be further advanced. Supply of 60kt AAM over 5 years starting in 2026 is only 12kt per year finishing in 2030. The battery manufactures need a hell of a lot more than that. It would be lucky to be enough to supply Sweden. I was hoping for at least 45kt/yr by 2030 after all this take about mining 104kt/yr. TLG will only need 24kt. The reindeer can graze in peace for a little longer.

OK mystery solved.

I'm not missing anything...........................Proga is

Good on you for fact checking that one - i had the CBF’s, so couldn’t be bothered policing that misinterpretation!

Not to mention the current drilling and planned JORC upgrade later this year will guide plans beyond the current scope of the Niska SS.

Stage 1 will be 19,800tpa
Stage 2 could actually be well beyond the 104ktpa

Proga - so it is crystal clear - you are only looking at the offtake for 1 customer (ACC) from Stage 1. This does not account for future customers and expansion plans.

 

[WheresTheMonkey]

Good on you for fact checking that one - i had the CBF’s, so couldn’t be bothered policing that misinterpretation!

Not to mention the current drilling and planned JORC upgrade later this year will guide plans beyond the current scope of the Niska SS.

Stage 1 will be 19,800tpa
Stage 2 could actually be well beyond the 104ktpa

Proga - so it is crystal clear - you are only looking at the offtake for 1 customer (ACC) from Stage 1. This does not account for future customers and expansion plans.

Does the 104K include the initial 20K anyone ?

It's a bit unclear