My thinking has always been Zijin do not want AVZ/Dath in control of the project . If they can get Nth CDL they get the control and the 15% comes back to us .We power on with Roch/Sth CDL until offers start coming in . Nigel didn't sound too fussed about the Nth at the AGM .
AVZ Discussion 2022
- Thread starter GazDix
- Start date
Carlos Danger
Top 20
No. The tone and content of the announcement on Friday indicated that we are still maintaining our rights. Ultimately it will cost the DRC government more to rat fuck us than Zijin.
While the meeting in Manono last week was billed as an event to bring the parties together, it was definitely more about making Cominiere look stupid imo. Although CKK has been doing a great job of that all on his own by being a clown in interviews.
It's a game of high brinkmanship and Nigel hasn't blinked yet. I think he is a better poker player than most give him credit for. Pocket aces only have an 80% chance of winning but you play them every single time.
So what you are saying is there are good and not so good options that can be taken ? The point being are these options we can fall back on if we are unsuccessful in pursuing what is rightfully ours ? You've always given me impression AVZ cannot lose everything . How serious do you think the MoM was when she said Manono is a matter of urgency ?
Carlos Danger
Top 20
I think the plan is to get Felix to intervene
It's been 2 months and the MoM hasn't acted on the urgency. We are just left to work something out with Cominiere. So management are putting pressure on Cominiere to have the negotiations in public which they are trying to avoid for obvious reasons.
The problem is we are in this situation because Felix has chosen a coalition for reelection rather than supporting the IGF. So it's a big risk that he will act in our favour. If all else fails we will sell rather than operating with hostile entities in an environment where laws aren't respected imo
I mean reading this you can see why the MoM cancelled the ML decrees, even if we know the contained allegations to be baseless. For an actor without all the pertinent facts and being swayed by Chinese whispers and those of the MoP and CAMI, this could represent a pretty damning indictment of AVZ and our activities.
What a shit-fight we are in. If the scenario ever eventuates that we are stripped of our licence, these claims along with the strategic national interest will no doubt form the basis of the justification presented to the wider investor community.
I don't envy our management trying to overcome this level of institutionalised corruption in such a dog-eat-dog environment. Best of luck to them, and fingers crossed for us all. I think we still stand a good chance of success, or at least reaching an outcome that won't see Nigel throwing himself off the roof of the Lubumbashi opera house.
yeowiepower
Emerged
It would be a mistake to cede the north to them. If they are willing to play these games to date, by having them as neighbors you already have the precedent of unethical dealings. It's blatantly clear that Zijin have connections in all the right high ranking places. It's my fear that AVZ would be cannon fodder down the track with delays in issuing permits, delays in roadworks, SEZ exclusion etc. If competing with Zijin to build up the mine and sell the first SPOD, they will do everything in their power to make sure AVZ dont come up on top IMO
Agreed it is so or die, no in between. Nigel has always conved this sentiment. No lying with dogs My question is when? I'm over this. What is going to trigger an outcome?
Do you think the MoM and the Felix don't know the real story ?
Hemicuda
Regular
I think Felix is balls deep in this mess
I think there is still uncertainty or we would have all this behind us. Our detractors had done a great job poisoning the well with FT during covid, and whilst we have obviously been trying to right that, it's not likely that our enemies all of a sudden stopped that effort. The MoM wouldn't have been left out from this campaign either, and though probably having some more insight she no doubt has some suborned members of her own ministry that have been attempting to muddy the waters alongside the MoP's crew.
I think if the cancellation of decrees was simply about putting the tenement back together as one on FTs orders was the sole reason this would have been mentioned as the motivation. After all, that's in line with the Mining Code and would easily explain the cancellation. Instead, unharmonious relations and the above posted letter were referenced. Which she must know aren't explanations fitting with the regulations.
So yes, my view is that FT and the MoM aren't 100% convinced of the real story, or at least have had enough dust thrown at them to still have questions. I imagine information is flowing towards them from a variety of sources, all contradictory. I could be wrong of course, but I think this would've been cleared up by now should they have fully bought into our explanations and the version put forward by the IGF. Politics also is undoubtedly a factor, they may be aligning with us but unable to act without upsetting the apple cart. Perhaps it's a mix of both.
Or of course they themselves may have been influenced by our adversaries underhand practices. I prefer not to think about that option though, because we'd be fucked.
Its all a bit sad. There is no way they don't know the full story. Sure there is bullshit flying around everywhere. It might seem confusing from our end, but from their end they absolutely know whats going on. Makes me think as others have already said, they either know they are up shit creek with the sell off to Zijin, or are after a greater slice themselves.
Imo the boss is not balls deep but neck deep and it's all flowing down hill from there. Drc want a bigger slice so as the elite's can all live comfortably in Europe.
Remark
Top 20
I'm probably clutching at straw here but I haven't seen this exact wording before in an announcement regarding the extension of the TIA...
"The Company confirms that the parties to the TIA have agreed to amend the end date to 30 June 2023 to provide for completion of closure formalities."
Previously it has been worded as follows "The parties remain committed to close the TIA and the development of the Manono Lithium and Tin Project."
"The Company confirms that the parties to the TIA have agreed to amend the end date to 30 June 2023 to provide for completion of closure formalities."
Previously it has been worded as follows "The parties remain committed to close the TIA and the development of the Manono Lithium and Tin Project."
Not necessarily. If you control the information flow you can control the narrative. If we haven't been able to get facetime with them we potentially haven't been able to fully present our side of the picture. Members of the government will be better able to channel information to the hugher echolons. The President and MoM will be largely relying on their people to provide them with the full story, and who knows the agenda of their people?
Possible. I would be surprised if they were incapable of sourcing accurate information about their own country. If thats the case then buckle up. I believe the IGF report would be part of that purpose. 3rd party finding the truth in a non-bias fashion.
MoneyBags1348
Top 20
In case anyone has forgotten that Celestin Kibeya Kabemba should be in jail, here are a couple of reminders….
26/11/2022
https://kongopress.com/2022/11/26/m...ux-chinois-de-zijin-116-millions-us-de-perte/
Manono: Lithium Gate? Arrest of the DG of the COMINIERE for illegal sale of 15% of the shares to the Chinese of Zijin, US$116 million in loss.
November 26, 2022
Kiki Kienge
With this action by the Congolese justice system, is this the beginning of the release in the exploitation of Manono lithium by AVZ Minerals?
It is on the basis of a report by the IGF (General Inspectorate of Finance) filed at the Court of Appeal of Gombe since April 21, 2022, that the Attorney General of Kinshasa ordered the arrest of the Director General and Technical Director of COMINIERE S.A, Athanase Mwamba and Celestin Kibeya.
This even confirmed by the ACAAJ (Congolese Association for Access to Justice) in a Tweet;
"The Prosecutor General of Kinshasa/Gombe has just ordered the arrest of Chief Executive Officer and Technical Director of the public company COMINIERE S.A. He criticizes them for the "mismanagement" of funds resulting from the sale of 15% of shares to a Chinese company. ”
The IGF report concluded in a fraudulent sale of 15% of the shares of the Congolese State to the Chinese company Zijin, the Cominiere had sold to the Chinese of Zijing at US$33,440 million precisely shares worth US$150 million, a loss of US$ 1166,560,000 million for the Congolese State funds;
"The transfer of the 15% of COMINIERE's shares in DATHCOM Mining to ZIJIN Mining was carried out in violation of the legal provisions on the disengagement of the State from the Portfolio companies (...)"
At this point according to the IGF report which considers 15% sales to Zijin and 5% to MMS illegal, AVZ would own 75% (with 15% of Dathomir) of the shares in Datcom and the Congolese State 25%.
In genesis in the operation of lithium in Manono, there was the joint venture company between the COMINIERE and DATHOMIR of the Chinese Simon Cong owner of the Kempinski hotel river in Kinshasa, which gave birth to DATHCOM, with 30% respectively to the Congolese State and 70% for the Chinese. Australians of AVZ Minerals will buy 60% of its shares in Dathcom and will obtain 5% surplus from the Congolese state for social achievements, such as the construction of roads, schools, hospitals...
After AVZ Minerals following an agreement with Dathomir came into possession of the 15% of the Chinese company Simon Cong, but after the filing of the operating license and the increase in the price of AVZ Minerals shares on the stock exchange, Simon Cong returns to his signing of the sales contract with AVZ Minerals and wants to regain possession of the 15%.
5 years after the Cominiere through its general manager, accuses AVZ Minerals of having achieved nothing in Manono and sells "illegally" to the detriment of the Congolese State 15% of its shares to the Chinese company Zijing, which wants at all costs to enter the exploitation of lithium in Manono;
"The sale of the 15% to the Zijin Group," based on the assessments made in the feasibility study, caused a significant shortfall for the Treasury valued at $11,56,5060,000. It was a real sale of the state's mining heritage for which you assume responsibility." IGF report.
The Chinese company, Zijing, had in particular recognized the illegal sale and decided to refund the 15% to the Congolese State without claiming anything in return, as this video shows;
The IGF report points in particular to the sale of 5% of the COMINIERE shares in DATHCOM to MMS;
"The alleged gracious and provisional transfer of 5% of the shares of the COMINIERE in DATHCOM Mining to DATHOMIR Mining SARL, but as regards the transfer contract, was final and irrevocable without the proceeds from the transfer being traced to the COMINIERE. ”
According to a source, many names appear in the IGF report, in particular of some political and institutional personalities, with the arrest of the two directors of the Cominiere, it would only be the beginning of Manono Gate
27/11/2022
Dathcom and Manono's lithium: COMINIERE's DG and DT in the sights of Justice
November 27, 2022 Faustin KUEDIASALA
Athanase Mwamba, DG ai of COMINIERE, the man by whom the whole mafia prospered within this Portfolio company
Better late than never, they say. Finally, the Congolese Justice decided to look into the serious indications of embezzlement contained in the last report of the IGF (General Inspectorate of Finances) in relation to the opacity which surrounded the sale of the shares of the company of the Portfolio , COMINIERE, in the Joint-Venture Dathcom, i.e. 15% of the shares sold to the Chinese company Zijin. According to Georges Kapiamba, President of ACAJ (Congolese Association for Access to Justice), the Attorney General at the Kinshasa/Gombe Court of Appeal has just ordered the arrest of Director General (DG) ai and Technical Director (DT) of COMINIERE SA He blames them for the “poor management” of the funds resulting from the sale of 15% of shares to a Chinese company. In return, they would have received nearly 34 million USD for a transaction which was equivalent in principle to approximately 150 million USD. Worse, the allocation of these 34 million USD, according to an IGF report dated April 2022, was surrounded by a great mystery that Justice would like to elucidate.
After the multiple alerts from civil society around the Manono lithium exploitation project, in the province of Tanganyika, by the joint venture Dathcom, it is the turn of Justice to take up this case.
According to Me Georges Kapiamba, president of the NGO ACAJ, "the Prosecutor General of Kinshasa/Gombe has just ordered the arrest of the Managing Director and Technical Director of the public company COMINIERE SA. He reproaches them for the + mismanagement + of the funds resulting from the sale of 15% of shares to a Chinese company ”.
The results of the IGF investigation of April 2022 had already condemned the management team of COMINIERE, considering that the sale of its shares in DATHCOM had been done in the most total opacity.
Indiscretions report that the sale of 15% of the shares of COMINIERE to the Chinese company ZIJIN was made in return for approximately 34 million USD, instead of 150 million USD, note the most probable estimates. What's worse, the 34 million USD received in this transaction are difficult to trace, noted the IGF in its report.
In civil society, we would also like Justice to go much further by taking an interest in 5% of the shares of COMINIERE sold to Dathomir, without any real consideration.
“They must also pay for the 5% of COMINIERE graciously ceded irrevocably to Dathomir according to the IGF Report. Let them cite their accomplices in evil, in selling off ,” Frank Fwamba of the “ Tous pour la RDC ” coalition wrote on his twitter account .
It will be recalled that, in its report of April 2022 relating to " the control of the regularization of the transfer of the shares of COMINIERE SA, a public law company, in the company DATHCOM MINING ", the IGF had expressed serious irregularities in these operations.
" The control mission formulated its final observations of a long adversarial procedure, which began with the Provisional observations sheet which allowed you first to reserve written supporting answers, then to elucidate them during an adversarial debate which gave rise to the signing of the minutes ”, noted, in this regard, the boss of the IGF, Jules Alingete, in the sheet of final observations sent to the ad interim director general of COMINIERE.
The mission made three main observations, namely: The sale of COMINIERE's 15% stake in DATHCOM to ZIJIN Mining was carried out in violation of the legal provisions on the withdrawal of the State from the companies in the Portfolio and caused, with regard to the assessments made in the feasibility study , a significant shortfall for the public treasury estimated at USD 116,560,000.00 (US dollars one hundred and sixteen million five hundred and sixty thousand). It was a real selling off of the State's mining heritage, for which you are responsible; Of the total amount of proceeds from the sale of 15% of the shares, which amounts to USD 33,440,000.00 (US dollars thirty-three million four hundred and forty thousand), you have already used approximately USD 6,800,000, 00 (US dollars six million eight hundred thousand) for operating needs to the detriment of productive investments including USD 5,438,198.00 (US dollars five million four hundred thirty-eight thousand one hundred and ninety-eight) for commissions , collations, fees, exceptional remuneration of all those who would have contributed to the operation; The presumed free and provisional transfer of 5% of COMIERE's shares in DATHCOM Mining to DATHCOM Mining Sarl, but which with regard to the transfer contract, was final and irrevocable without the income from the transfer being traced to COMINIERE exceptional remuneration of all those who would have contributed to the operation; The presumed free and provisional transfer of 5% of COMIERE's shares in DATHCOM Mining to DATHCOM Mining Sarl, but which with regard to the transfer contract, was final and irrevocable without the income from the transfer being traced to COMINIERE exceptional remuneration of all those who would have contributed to the operation; The presumed free and provisional transfer of 5% of COMIERE's shares in DATHCOM Mining to DATHCOM Mining Sarl, but which with regard to the transfer contract, was final and irrevocable without the income from the transfer being traced to COMINIERE ".
Today, it is before the Justice that the DG ai and the DT of COMINIERE must explain themselves. If the DT seems to clear himself of any responsibility, internally, it is indicated that he also committed acts as DG. In short, the DT cannot therefore disorient the Justice by arguing that he did not participate in the management. He is part of the game and must assume his actions until the end.
Eco news
26/11/2022
https://kongopress.com/2022/11/26/m...ux-chinois-de-zijin-116-millions-us-de-perte/
Manono: Lithium Gate? Arrest of the DG of the COMINIERE for illegal sale of 15% of the shares to the Chinese of Zijin, US$116 million in loss.
November 26, 2022
Kiki Kienge
With this action by the Congolese justice system, is this the beginning of the release in the exploitation of Manono lithium by AVZ Minerals?
It is on the basis of a report by the IGF (General Inspectorate of Finance) filed at the Court of Appeal of Gombe since April 21, 2022, that the Attorney General of Kinshasa ordered the arrest of the Director General and Technical Director of COMINIERE S.A, Athanase Mwamba and Celestin Kibeya.
This even confirmed by the ACAAJ (Congolese Association for Access to Justice) in a Tweet;
"The Prosecutor General of Kinshasa/Gombe has just ordered the arrest of Chief Executive Officer and Technical Director of the public company COMINIERE S.A. He criticizes them for the "mismanagement" of funds resulting from the sale of 15% of shares to a Chinese company. ”
The IGF report concluded in a fraudulent sale of 15% of the shares of the Congolese State to the Chinese company Zijin, the Cominiere had sold to the Chinese of Zijing at US$33,440 million precisely shares worth US$150 million, a loss of US$ 1166,560,000 million for the Congolese State funds;
"The transfer of the 15% of COMINIERE's shares in DATHCOM Mining to ZIJIN Mining was carried out in violation of the legal provisions on the disengagement of the State from the Portfolio companies (...)"
At this point according to the IGF report which considers 15% sales to Zijin and 5% to MMS illegal, AVZ would own 75% (with 15% of Dathomir) of the shares in Datcom and the Congolese State 25%.
In genesis in the operation of lithium in Manono, there was the joint venture company between the COMINIERE and DATHOMIR of the Chinese Simon Cong owner of the Kempinski hotel river in Kinshasa, which gave birth to DATHCOM, with 30% respectively to the Congolese State and 70% for the Chinese. Australians of AVZ Minerals will buy 60% of its shares in Dathcom and will obtain 5% surplus from the Congolese state for social achievements, such as the construction of roads, schools, hospitals...
After AVZ Minerals following an agreement with Dathomir came into possession of the 15% of the Chinese company Simon Cong, but after the filing of the operating license and the increase in the price of AVZ Minerals shares on the stock exchange, Simon Cong returns to his signing of the sales contract with AVZ Minerals and wants to regain possession of the 15%.
5 years after the Cominiere through its general manager, accuses AVZ Minerals of having achieved nothing in Manono and sells "illegally" to the detriment of the Congolese State 15% of its shares to the Chinese company Zijing, which wants at all costs to enter the exploitation of lithium in Manono;
"The sale of the 15% to the Zijin Group," based on the assessments made in the feasibility study, caused a significant shortfall for the Treasury valued at $11,56,5060,000. It was a real sale of the state's mining heritage for which you assume responsibility." IGF report.
The Chinese company, Zijing, had in particular recognized the illegal sale and decided to refund the 15% to the Congolese State without claiming anything in return, as this video shows;
The IGF report points in particular to the sale of 5% of the COMINIERE shares in DATHCOM to MMS;
"The alleged gracious and provisional transfer of 5% of the shares of the COMINIERE in DATHCOM Mining to DATHOMIR Mining SARL, but as regards the transfer contract, was final and irrevocable without the proceeds from the transfer being traced to the COMINIERE. ”
According to a source, many names appear in the IGF report, in particular of some political and institutional personalities, with the arrest of the two directors of the Cominiere, it would only be the beginning of Manono Gate
27/11/2022
Dathcom and Manono's lithium: COMINIERE's DG and DT in the sights of Justice
November 27, 2022 Faustin KUEDIASALA
Athanase Mwamba, DG ai of COMINIERE, the man by whom the whole mafia prospered within this Portfolio company
Better late than never, they say. Finally, the Congolese Justice decided to look into the serious indications of embezzlement contained in the last report of the IGF (General Inspectorate of Finances) in relation to the opacity which surrounded the sale of the shares of the company of the Portfolio , COMINIERE, in the Joint-Venture Dathcom, i.e. 15% of the shares sold to the Chinese company Zijin. According to Georges Kapiamba, President of ACAJ (Congolese Association for Access to Justice), the Attorney General at the Kinshasa/Gombe Court of Appeal has just ordered the arrest of Director General (DG) ai and Technical Director (DT) of COMINIERE SA He blames them for the “poor management” of the funds resulting from the sale of 15% of shares to a Chinese company. In return, they would have received nearly 34 million USD for a transaction which was equivalent in principle to approximately 150 million USD. Worse, the allocation of these 34 million USD, according to an IGF report dated April 2022, was surrounded by a great mystery that Justice would like to elucidate.
After the multiple alerts from civil society around the Manono lithium exploitation project, in the province of Tanganyika, by the joint venture Dathcom, it is the turn of Justice to take up this case.
According to Me Georges Kapiamba, president of the NGO ACAJ, "the Prosecutor General of Kinshasa/Gombe has just ordered the arrest of the Managing Director and Technical Director of the public company COMINIERE SA. He reproaches them for the + mismanagement + of the funds resulting from the sale of 15% of shares to a Chinese company ”.
The results of the IGF investigation of April 2022 had already condemned the management team of COMINIERE, considering that the sale of its shares in DATHCOM had been done in the most total opacity.
Indiscretions report that the sale of 15% of the shares of COMINIERE to the Chinese company ZIJIN was made in return for approximately 34 million USD, instead of 150 million USD, note the most probable estimates. What's worse, the 34 million USD received in this transaction are difficult to trace, noted the IGF in its report.
In civil society, we would also like Justice to go much further by taking an interest in 5% of the shares of COMINIERE sold to Dathomir, without any real consideration.
“They must also pay for the 5% of COMINIERE graciously ceded irrevocably to Dathomir according to the IGF Report. Let them cite their accomplices in evil, in selling off ,” Frank Fwamba of the “ Tous pour la RDC ” coalition wrote on his twitter account .
It will be recalled that, in its report of April 2022 relating to " the control of the regularization of the transfer of the shares of COMINIERE SA, a public law company, in the company DATHCOM MINING ", the IGF had expressed serious irregularities in these operations.
" The control mission formulated its final observations of a long adversarial procedure, which began with the Provisional observations sheet which allowed you first to reserve written supporting answers, then to elucidate them during an adversarial debate which gave rise to the signing of the minutes ”, noted, in this regard, the boss of the IGF, Jules Alingete, in the sheet of final observations sent to the ad interim director general of COMINIERE.
The mission made three main observations, namely: The sale of COMINIERE's 15% stake in DATHCOM to ZIJIN Mining was carried out in violation of the legal provisions on the withdrawal of the State from the companies in the Portfolio and caused, with regard to the assessments made in the feasibility study , a significant shortfall for the public treasury estimated at USD 116,560,000.00 (US dollars one hundred and sixteen million five hundred and sixty thousand). It was a real selling off of the State's mining heritage, for which you are responsible; Of the total amount of proceeds from the sale of 15% of the shares, which amounts to USD 33,440,000.00 (US dollars thirty-three million four hundred and forty thousand), you have already used approximately USD 6,800,000, 00 (US dollars six million eight hundred thousand) for operating needs to the detriment of productive investments including USD 5,438,198.00 (US dollars five million four hundred thirty-eight thousand one hundred and ninety-eight) for commissions , collations, fees, exceptional remuneration of all those who would have contributed to the operation; The presumed free and provisional transfer of 5% of COMIERE's shares in DATHCOM Mining to DATHCOM Mining Sarl, but which with regard to the transfer contract, was final and irrevocable without the income from the transfer being traced to COMINIERE exceptional remuneration of all those who would have contributed to the operation; The presumed free and provisional transfer of 5% of COMIERE's shares in DATHCOM Mining to DATHCOM Mining Sarl, but which with regard to the transfer contract, was final and irrevocable without the income from the transfer being traced to COMINIERE exceptional remuneration of all those who would have contributed to the operation; The presumed free and provisional transfer of 5% of COMIERE's shares in DATHCOM Mining to DATHCOM Mining Sarl, but which with regard to the transfer contract, was final and irrevocable without the income from the transfer being traced to COMINIERE ".
Today, it is before the Justice that the DG ai and the DT of COMINIERE must explain themselves. If the DT seems to clear himself of any responsibility, internally, it is indicated that he also committed acts as DG. In short, the DT cannot therefore disorient the Justice by arguing that he did not participate in the management. He is part of the game and must assume his actions until the end.
Eco news
Eventually we will have a result here either good or bad. This whole shit fight has unearthed an absolute hornets nest of corruption and chaos. There is now to much news out there with regards to the absolutely corrupt heartless players in every level of the govt and admin in the DRC. Ultimately most of the top echelon will survive but as per any of the great movies about lies corruption and greed there is always a fall guy. CKK is a dead man walking.
Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke
are you fucking kidding me I need to get the car started now and im off
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