AVZ Discussion 2022

[Oversee]

Just Mundi hasn’t published a judgment yet (let alone a transcript of proceedings). Nor can it be found elsewhere at this point in time. I tried all of those open resources before posting here. But I saw on Twitter that Cumquatcapital had read the “transcript” and so assumed that someone has sourced a copy (likely off of someone closer to the proceedings) and so thought I would ask here as you never know who may be reading. Anyway, I’ll just wait until it or the judgment surfaces. I’m just interested in reading the entire thing, as it interests me and will provide much more detail than the announcement this week.

 

[Xerof]

Update at the OK Corral

 

[Randenj]

Had to go and look up what a memorial was. This might be helpful for others who need to do the same: https://acica.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/ACICA-Explanatory-Note_-Memorials-or-Pleadings.pdf

 

[CHB]

Had to go and look up what a memorial was. This might be helpful for others who need to do the same: https://acica.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/ACICA-Explanatory-Note_-Memorials-or-Pleadings.pdf

Basically sounds like they've responded and put forward their reasons for the penalty fees including I'm imagining the amount they want cominiere to pay


"The ICSID tribunal also invited AVZI, GLH and Dathcom to provide submissions as to the basis upon which they contend they are entitled to be paid penalties in respect of any failure to comply with the Interim Orders."

 

[Dazmac66]

Read it as moving towards the formal part of the process whereby both sides put forward their complete brief of evidence??
from Chat GPT

In the context of ICSID arbitration, the "memorial" is typically lodged at the beginning of the arbitration process. It is one of the initial written submissions presented by one of the parties to the dispute. The memorial sets out the party's position, legal arguments, and supporting evidence at the outset of the arbitration proceedings.

Edit: I have no idea really!!

 

[Carlos Danger]

Basically sounds like they've responded and put forward their reasons for the penalty fees including I'm imagining the amount they want cominiere to pay


"The ICSID tribunal also invited AVZI, GLH and Dathcom to provide submissions as to the basis upon which they contend they are entitled to be paid penalties in respect of any failure to comply with the Interim Orders."

Key word merits homie. The penalty request is the new provisional measures.

Let's hope the negotiations with the new government go better than last time when we were completely locked out of discussions for months although the market was told they were ongoing. Then we had an MoU that was completely ignored by the DRC so now we no longer talk about it.

Otherwise we will have no other move than to go the distance and we're looking at another 18 months minimum before we get a decision from the ICSID on merits. Not that the company has offered any indication through official announcements to their shareholders that this is actually how long it's going to take if management are shunned yet again.

 

[CHB]

Key word merits homie. The penalty request is the new provisional measures.

Let's hope the negotiations with the new government go better than last time when we were completely locked out of discussions for months although the market was told they were ongoing. Then we had an MoU that was completely ignored by the DRC so now we no longer talk about it.

Otherwise we will have no other move than to go the distance and we're looking at another 18 months minimum before we get a decision from the ICSID on merits. Not that the company has offered any indication through official announcements to their shareholders that this is actually how long it's going to take if management are shunned yet again.

View attachment 59689
View attachment 59690

Best to assume we'll have to go the distance IMO.

 

[Thaz]

My musings from Chat GPT - take from this what you will.

When claimants file a memorial on the merits in the International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID), it initiates a key phase in the arbitration process. Here's what typically happens:

1. **Submission of the Memorial**: The claimants, usually represented by legal counsel, submit a memorial on the merits. This memorial lays out their arguments supporting their claims, including legal reasoning, relevant facts, and evidence.

2. **Response by the Respondent**: After receiving the claimants' memorial, the respondent (usually the host state) has an opportunity to respond. They submit a counter-memorial, which presents their defense against the claims made by the claimants. This response addresses the legal arguments and evidence put forward by the claimants.

3. **Document Exchange**: Both parties exchange these written submissions (memorial and counter-memorial) with each other and with the tribunal. This allows all parties involved to thoroughly review and understand each other's positions.

4. **Expert Evidence and Witness Statements**: Alongside the written submissions, parties may also submit expert reports and witness statements to support their arguments. These documents can provide additional context, analysis, and evidence related to the dispute.

5. **Hearings**: After the exchange of written submissions, the tribunal may schedule hearings to further explore the issues in the case. During these hearings, both parties have the opportunity to present their arguments orally, respond to questions from the tribunal, and cross-examine witnesses.

6. **Deliberation and Decision**: Following the hearings, the tribunal deliberates on the case based on the written submissions, evidence presented, and oral arguments heard during the hearings. The tribunal then issues a final decision, known as an award, which typically includes their findings on liability, any damages awarded, and any other remedies or orders deemed appropriate.

It's important to note that the specific procedures and timelines can vary depending on the rules agreed upon by the parties or prescribed by the ICSID Convention and Arbitration Rules. Additionally, the tribunal may have discretion to adapt the process to the particular circumstances of the case.

The filing of a memorial on the merits typically occurs after the initial phases of the arbitration process in ICSID. These initial phases often include:

1. **Registration of the Request**: This is the first step where the claimants formally submit their request for arbitration to the ICSID Secretariat. The Secretariat examines the request to ensure it meets the necessary requirements for registration.

2. **Constitution of the Tribunal**: Once the request is registered, the next step is the constitution of the arbitral tribunal. This usually involves the appointment of arbitrators by both parties and the selection of a presiding arbitrator.

3. **Procedural Hearing**: After the tribunal is constituted, it typically holds a procedural hearing to discuss procedural matters such as the timetable for the case, document production, and other procedural issues.

4. **Document Production and Preliminary Steps**: Following the procedural hearing, there may be a period for document production, exchange of initial pleadings, and other preliminary steps before the parties proceed to the merits phase.

Therefore, by the time the claimants file a memorial on the merits, the case has usually progressed through several preliminary stages of the arbitration process. The memorial on the merits marks a significant point in the case where the parties begin to present their substantive legal arguments and evidence to support their respective positions. From this point onwards, the focus of the proceedings shifts more squarely to the substantive issues underlying the dispute.

The duration of the stage involving the filing of a memorial on the merits can vary significantly depending on various factors, including the complexity of the case, the amount of evidence and legal arguments to be presented, the procedural rules agreed upon by the parties, and the availability of the tribunal and parties' legal representatives. However, there are some general considerations:

1. **Timetable Set by Tribunal**: The arbitral tribunal typically establishes a procedural timetable at the outset of the case, which may include deadlines for filing the memorial on the merits, counter-memorial, expert reports, witness statements, and any other relevant documents. This timetable is often influenced by the complexity of the case and the preferences of the parties.

2. **Length of Memorial**: The length and complexity of the memorial on the merits can impact the time needed for its preparation and review. In complex cases with extensive legal arguments and evidence, preparing a comprehensive memorial may take longer.

3. **Exchange of Documents**: The stage involving the filing of memorials often involves the exchange of written submissions, expert reports, and witness statements between the parties. The time needed for this exchange depends on the agreed-upon deadlines and the responsiveness of the parties.

4. **Hearings**: If hearings are scheduled as part of this stage, additional time will be required for the parties to prepare for the hearings and for the tribunal to conduct them. The duration of hearings can vary widely depending on the complexity of the issues and the amount of evidence to be presented.

5. **Tribunal's Deliberations**: After the submission of memorials and any hearings, the tribunal will need time to deliberate on the case before issuing its final decision. The length of this deliberation period can vary depending on the complexity of the case and the tribunal's workload.

In summary, while there is no fixed duration for the stage involving the filing of a memorial on the merits, it can range from several months to over a year, depending on the specific circumstances of the case.

 

[wombat74]

My musings from Chat GPT - take from this what you will.

So it's all irrelevant short term . More about building pressure on the enemy .

 

[wombat74]

Key word merits homie. The penalty request is the new provisional measures.

Let's hope the negotiations with the new government go better than last time when we were completely locked out of discussions for months although the market was told they were ongoing. Then we had an MoU that was completely ignored by the DRC so now we no longer talk about it.

Otherwise we will have no other move than to go the distance and we're looking at another 18 months minimum before we get a decision from the ICSID on merits. Not that the company has offered any indication through official announcements to their shareholders that this is actually how long it's going to take if management are shunned yet again.

View attachment 59689
View attachment 59690

"Recent correspondence between AVZ and the DRC Government has been constructive and highlights the clearly positive and ongoing relationship between both parties. Importantly, and most recently, AVZ’s Managing Director, Nigel Ferguson, sat with His Excellency President Tshisekedi, to discuss these matters." 9/10/23 .

Nigel sat down with Tshisekedi and had a chin wag around this time /date . Got a photo with the head of Cami . Maybe Felix is camera shy .

 

[Pokok]

Key word merits homie. The penalty request is the new provisional measures.

Let's hope the negotiations with the new government go better than last time when we were completely locked out of discussions for months although the market was told they were ongoing. Then we had an MoU that was completely ignored by the DRC so now we no longer talk about it.

Otherwise we will have no other move than to go the distance and we're looking at another 18 months minimum before we get a decision from the ICSID on merits. Not that the company has offered any indication through official announcements to their shareholders that this is actually how long it's going to take if management are shunned yet again.

View attachment 59689
View attachment 59690

Thanks Carlos , now I am depressed looks like I will start drinking early and more , ( the wife is behind me isn't she )

 

[Flight996]

Meanwhile Jin Chen/Zijin continues to drill-out the north-eastern section of Roche Dure unhindered until the second part of the 15% issue is arbitrated.

I hope they share their results with us. It would be the gentlemanly thing to do.

 

[Doc]

Meanwhile Jin Chen/Zijin continues to drill-out the north-eastern section of Roche Dure unhindered until the second part of the 15% issue is arbitrated.

I hope they share their results with us. It would be the gentlemanly thing to do.

Maybe they really mining and just saying they are 'drilling cores', they just happen to be 500mm apart.
Get enough cores with the good grades it'll be worth a buck or two.
Hey theres a thought Nigel, sell our cores when the cash gets too low

 

[Uglybob]

Lets face it, if Z are in there strip mining the place under the guise of drilling, the only ones who would be surprised would be the DRC officials. Good luck on them getting their royalties...

 

[Xerof]

OK, Friday funnies.


I’ll start

In Adrian Edmonson's (of the Young Ones) autobiography ("Berserker") he claims the following limerick is the best he's ever heard. It's certainly "up there":

"Come down to Llanelli my boy
For a fuck you will really enjoy
At the height of catharsis
What you'll feel up your arse is
The tongue of a corgi called Roy"

 

[Spikerama]

OK, Friday funnies.


I’ll start

In Adrian Edmonson's (of the Young Ones) autobiography ("Berserker") he claims the following limerick is the best he's ever heard. It's certainly "up there":

"Come down to Llanelli my boy
For a fuck you will really enjoy
At the height of catharsis
What you'll feel up your arse is
The tongue of a corgi called Roy"

I like Adrian Edmonson. And Rick Mayall. Saw them live once. However I don't find that funny.

Maybe I'm too old now for Bottom poetry.

 

[Pokok]

I think this is a really good joke ,, I married 4 times , WHAT a moment that is as not as funny as I think

 

[Winenut]

Don’t understand why we aren’t employing local security teams to ensure the exact area we have “good legal title on” is not secured. As if they wouldn’t take out all our spod at the same fucking time. I mean it would cost probably 100k au per year for a staff of 10 of the biggest local boys we could put together. If anything to intimidate, at least. At most to ensure “good legal title” is not another lie hatched by his grace the untouchable Nigel and his endless unproven genius.

Zijin would pay them off in 2 seconds flat

 

[Doc]

Zijin would pay them off in 2 seconds flat

Thought we had security on the core shed. I’m sure it was mentioned here

 

[Nellie17]

Don’t understand why we aren’t employing local security teams to ensure the exact area we have “good legal title on” is not secured. As if they wouldn’t take out all our spod at the same fucking time. I mean it would cost probably 100k au per year for a staff of 10 of the biggest local boys we could put together. If anything to intimidate, at least. At most to ensure “good legal title” is not another lie hatched by his grace the untouchable Nigel and his endless unproven genius.

G'day Tommy,

May I ask, how do you know that we're not employing security of any sorts?

Cheers,
Nellie