AVZ Discussion 2022

[9cardomaha]

Re the ICISD case, what are the direct resolutions/remedies we are hoping to get out of it?

I know the original announcement says:
... seek various remedies for the failure of the DRC and its administrative departments, to comply with obligations under the DRC Mining Code, in particular the implementation of the various measures that should have led to the issuance of an Operating Permit to Dathcom...

But what will be the actual outcomes?

-$$ Compensation for the whole mess and delays?
-Confirmation that they will review and issue the ML etc to Dathcom (which will be legally binding)
-Fast-track of fixing all the errors and getting a clean slate? (eg unwinding the PR13359 back to Dathcom and issuing the correct Surface Rights notice, so we can pay and play on?
-Some sort of high level overview/oversight of all the dealings moving forward to ensure they are within the law and framework?
-Some form of specialty team to deal with AVZ directly from the Mining/Admin perspective?
-Some form of goodwill gesture to compensate for the lost time and revenue?

Just curious on what kind of solid outcomes we might have, assuming it is in AVZ's/Dathcom's favour etc.
And if this is all binding, will it give us the path back to trading early in the new year, pending the ASX having a read and signing off.

Virtual hearing from Monday was for provisional measures to maintain the status quo - which translates to, orders to ensure no more shit fuckery until the ICSID has ruled on our request.

To that end, we would expect (before Christmas):

• Suspension of PR 13359 and PR 15775.
• No work to be done on 13359/15775 by any company other than Dathcom - Zijin is working on the north because 'the injunction is against Cominiere, so we can do what we want'.
• Restrain the DRC from taking any administrative actions prejudicial to Dathcom's interests - no more going around ordering CAMI to update registry or anything else like that.
• Daily penalty against anyone who is in breach - value of penalty please see ICC.

Pursuant to getting the provisional measures, we continue to play hardball and use the ICC and ICSID leverage to negotiate for what is rightfully ours.

DRC continue to ask us to drop all cases before negotiations... Herp no thank you.
But BOD would likely drop cases when the detractors offer up something resembling a fair offer - obviously some give and take from both sides. But no way in fucking hell would we ever preemptively drop cases on their 'goodwill'.

 

[wombat74]

Virtual hearing from Monday was for provisional measures to maintain the status quo - which translates to, orders to ensure no more shit fuckery until the ICSID has ruled on our request.

To that end, we would expect (before Christmas):

• Suspension of PR 13359 and PR 15775.
• No work to be done on 13359/15775 by any company other than Dathcom - Zijin is working on the north because 'the injunction is against Cominiere, so we can do what we want'.
• Restrain the DRC from taking any administrative actions prejudicial to Dathcom's interests - no more going around ordering CAMI to update registry or anything else like that.
• Daily penalty against anyone who is in breach - value of penalty please see ICC.

Pursuant to getting the provisional measures, we continue to play hardball and use the ICC and ICSID leverage to negotiate for what is rightfully ours.

DRC continue to ask us to drop all cases before negotiations... Herp no thank you.
But BOD would likely drop cases when the detractors offer up something resembling a fair offer - obviously some give and take from both sides. But no way in fucking hell would we ever preemptively drop cases on their 'goodwill'.

Are you expecting China/Cominiere to follow ICSID orders ?

 

[cruiser51]

Are you expecting China/Cominiere to follow ICSID orders ?

I thought ICSID case was vs DRC, it is up to DRC to implements its laws if instructed by ICSID.

Sooo DRC will have to tell Zijin to take a hike.

 

[Thaz]

Daily penalty against anyone who is in breach - value of penalty please see ICC.

I'm reading this as we get penalties from Cominiere, Zijin, et al for breaches per entity?

I think from memory, current penalty rates is $100K per Day... so it could be $200K per day for both entities?!

 

[9cardomaha]

Are you expecting China/Cominiere to follow ICSID orders ?

China found a loophole in what we got at ICC - slimy fucks but technically not breaking the law. Cominiere on the other hand are retarded, but that is back firing and DLA already submitting snippets of 'Cominiere's great work on the site' which is damaging to Faksen's claim that Z is not in breach and conducting all the work by themselves....

ICSID providing the blanket measure to cover everything would stop Z in their tracks IMO.

 

[9cardomaha]

I'm reading this as we get penalties from Cominiere, Zijin, et al for breaches per entity?

I think from memory, current penalty rates is $100K per Day... so it could be $200K per day for both entities?!

You are correct, but its the JV (singular) that is in breach so 100K from the JV per day. One caveat to this, it is possible that ICSID supercedes ICC, so ICC penalties stop ramping up and we only have ICSID measures going forward. but as i pointed out above, this is far better than just having ICC injunctions in place because Z don't give a flying fuck.

 

[Dom1974]

@9cardomaha If Cominiere and Zijin are in a JV (Manono Lithium), then aren’t Zijin liable as well under the JV by association with Cominiere? If Court tells Cominiere to stop, the whole JV comes to a halt I would have thought. That’s for ICC. ICSID different kettle of fish. Govt will be instructed to stop everything regardless who’s involved. Hopefully that will make Chinese come to the table with a decent offer. Otherwise it’ll just sit there.

 

[wombat74]

You are correct, but its the JV (singular) that is in breach so 100K from the JV per day. One caveat to this, it is possible that ICSID supercedes ICC, so ICC penalties stop ramping up and we only have ICSID measures going forward. but as i pointed out above, this is far better than just having ICC injunctions in place because Z don't give a flying fuck.

Cheers mate . Are you concerned about securing the $20mil ? Does Nigel have a back up plan if Locke decline ? What happens if we can't raise funds ? If stall/sh1t f--kery tactics continue after the election at what point does Nigel go all in for compensation ? Surely the countdown has begun ?Cheers

 

[9cardomaha]

If Cominiere and Zijin are in a JV (Manono Lithium), then aren’t Zijin liable as well under the JV by association with Cominiere? If Court tells Cominiere to stop, the whole JV comes to a halt I would have thought.

By normal logic absolutely. But the way the injunction is worded it can be argued that if Cominiere are only reaping benefits from progress made by the majority shareholder, then they aren't in breach. DLA definitely going to argue this point, and Cominiere carrying on like fuckheads is only helping build DLA's case.

Its bonkers anyone would believe that Comineire are just sitting idly by - Z definitely consulting Cominiere on issues -> this is in breach....

 

[BRICK]

Ganfeng offtake was christmas time years ago, still waiting on the easter eggs

My easter eggs were getting rid of MMGA

 

[Winenut]

My easter eggs were getting rid of MMGA

No.... that was the Christmas gift

 

[9cardomaha]

Cheers mate . Are you concerned about securing the $20mil ? Does Nigel have a back up plan if Locke decline ? What happens if we can't raise funds ? If stall/sh1t f--kery tactics continue after the election at what point does Nigel go all in for compensation ? Surely the countdown has begun ?Cheers

• No concerns from my end for 20mil funding from Locke.
• I've previously said Locke funding is the backup. But backup for backup would be to find another fund house, at a potentially steeper rate. DD fee is only if they find we have omitted critical information ahead of DD, but DLA seems confident for back-to-back wins, so DD is not an issue in my mind.
• The backup for the backup of the backup (ie no funding) is to get DFAT involved, we already have comms with the embassy, i know DFAT is also aware of the issue - increasing tariffs on our minerals to China would do the trick @DFAT if you're reading take notes. Sidenote is that we have 11m in the bank, legal fees didn't seem to drain that much last quarter right? 20m additional is just a kicker, taking us to 2030 and beyond which no one wants.
• Stalling and shit fuckery will continue from Z and C period, elections be damned - just need to get more pieces on the board. We have ICC, soon will have ICSID, these will wake the DRC, and if it doesnt then we cross that bridge when we come to it.
  • I doubt they can ignore it though, or at minimum, someone foots the bill on their behalf. Speculation doesn't help anyone, so leave it at that.
• Countdowns are variable, my watch can go up to 999 days, its been ticking away, so i'd argue it has not stopped?

edit: I will add that submission and preparing documentation for ICC/ICSID is the brunt of legal fees, and since all the cases cover similar aspects, a lot of the prep work that DLA has going on is only billed once and then used across different cases.

 

[Hodlandwin69]

No.... that was the Christmas gift

I don't think this is the last we'll see of MMGA unfortunately.
Their big dog lawyers don't seem like the people to walk away without a fight

 

[Strongman]

• No concerns from my end for 20mil funding from Locke.
• I've previously said Locke funding is the backup. But backup for backup would be to find another fund house, at a potentially steeper rate. DD fee is only if they find we have omitted critical information ahead of DD, but DLA seems confident for back-to-back wins, so DD is not an issue in my mind.
• The backup for the backup of the backup (ie no funding) is to get DFAT involved, we already have comms with the embassy, i know DFAT is also aware of the issue - increasing tariffs on our minerals to China would do the trick @DFAT if you're reading take notes. Sidenote is that we have 11m in the bank, legal fees didn't seem to drain that much last quarter right? 20m additional is just a kicker, taking us to 2030 and beyond which no one wants.
• Stalling and shit fuckery will continue from Z and C period, elections be damned - just need to get more pieces on the board. We have ICC, soon will have ICSID, these will wake the DRC, and if it doesnt then we cross that bridge when we come to it.
  • I doubt they can ignore it though, or at minimum, someone foots the bill on their behalf. Speculation doesn't help anyone, so leave it at that.
• Countdowns are variable, my watch can go up to 999 days, its been ticking away, so i'd argue it has not stopped?

edit: I will add that submission and preparing documentation for ICC/ICSID is the brunt of legal fees, and since all the cases cover similar aspects, a lot of the prep work that DLA has going on is only billed once and then used across different cases.

Well said 9card. Always good to hear your reasoned and rational thoughts. Your a bloody gem mate ...cheers

 

[netoo_sethi]

China found a loophole in what we got at ICC - slimy fucks but technically not breaking the law. Cominiere on the other hand are retarded, but that is back firing and DLA already submitting snippets of 'Cominiere's great work on the site' which is damaging to Faksen's claim that Z is not in breach and conducting all the work by themselves....

ICSID providing the blanket measure to cover everything would stop Z in their tracks IMO.

Hi evergone,

Thanks @9cardomaha for your valuable insights. A few, i beg to differ, as below:

The screenshot below is from Nov-15-2023 ICC Opinion/Order.

Good morning /afternoon,

Thanks David for the HC screenshots.

There is no legal loophole that C. and/or Z. could exploit from the 62 page Nov-15 ICC Order.

You are making sound deductions from facts and laws, however, i feel, you did not or may have not accurately deduced meaning of the two non-ambigous words (in red, screenshot).

We are not talking about whether Dathcom JV termination is legal or illegal, that is what ICC said. We are merely focussing on that 15775 is a JV entity with 61-39 between Z. And C. And therefore by virtue of this Z. majority owned Manono lithium, any work by C. is in DIRECT violation AND/OR any work by Z. leads to C. in INDIRECT violation of the Order.

There is NO loophole, Courts in Injunctive cases mostly Order blanket statements such as this highlighted in the above picture for the ONLY reason that any remote interpretation or a corner-case exception should be avoided by all parties.

Finally, in non-legal layman terms, because Manono Lithium is a 61-39 JV, work done by Z. that results in gainful progress of the 15775 tenaments DIRECTLY benefits C. and hence C. violates the Arb. Order.

This quote "Cominiere is enjoined from taking any action ..." (from above) came in the ICC first grant of AVZ injunction (April 2023) - after which Dathcom dissolved and 15775 established - this is direct violation by C.

That is why, AVZ submitted $19m from accured daily fines started April and ending Nov-15.

In May-2023, C. dissolved dathcom. After that happens, when it happens, who does and what he does are ALL moot issues. The starting damage is done and is irrversible, irrevokable and non-trivial. Period.

From global lawyer on X, below:

"So even if Zijin's work on the licences could not be directly attributed to Cominiere, the mere fact that they have become part of a new JV "Manono Lithium" is a violation of the judgment and causes damages. Whether the penalty is triggered once, twice or three times cannot be said with certainty. For that we would need to know the court's practice."

"It is completely irrelevant what happened afterwards. The first offence was the dissolution of Dathcom and the creation of Manono Lithium and the collaboration with Cami and MoP to get the Zijin/Cominière joint venture up and running and registered in the cadastre. It is completely irrelevant who is now carrying out which field work."
--------------------

 

[wombat74]

• No concerns from my end for 20mil funding from Locke.
• I've previously said Locke funding is the backup. But backup for backup would be to find another fund house, at a potentially steeper rate. DD fee is only if they find we have omitted critical information ahead of DD, but DLA seems confident for back-to-back wins, so DD is not an issue in my mind.
• The backup for the backup of the backup (ie no funding) is to get DFAT involved, we already have comms with the embassy, i know DFAT is also aware of the issue - increasing tariffs on our minerals to China would do the trick @DFAT if you're reading take notes. Sidenote is that we have 11m in the bank, legal fees didn't seem to drain that much last quarter right? 20m additional is just a kicker, taking us to 2030 and beyond which no one wants.
• Stalling and shit fuckery will continue from Z and C period, elections be damned - just need to get more pieces on the board. We have ICC, soon will have ICSID, these will wake the DRC, and if it doesnt then we cross that bridge when we come to it.
  • I doubt they can ignore it though, or at minimum, someone foots the bill on their behalf. Speculation doesn't help anyone, so leave it at that.
• Countdowns are variable, my watch can go up to 999 days, its been ticking away, so i'd argue it has not stopped?

edit: I will add that submission and preparing documentation for ICC/ICSID is the brunt of legal fees, and since all the cases cover similar aspects, a lot of the prep work that DLA has going on is only billed once and then used across different cases.

Thanks again for your response . My concern has been the massive value of the Manono project by far out ways any penalties suffered .That is if we take the view China controls the DRC Government . Which most would agree it does . Either way crunch time is fast approaching for the direction this will go . 3 months tops IMO . imo

 

[Roon]

Thanks again for your response . My concern has been the massive value of the Manono project by far out ways any penalties suffered .That is if we take the view China controls the DRC Government . Which most would agree it does . Either way crunch time is fast approaching for the direction this will go . 3 months tops IMO . imo

I also hope that the financial penalty imposed at ICSID for contravension of the emergency orders substantially outweighs that of the ICC which, loophole or not, doesn't seem to have had much impact.

Perhaps as stated above the broader blanket coverage of the order will reduce wriggle room, and also the involvement directly of the DRC authorities may present a different outcome. Will be interesting to see how Zijin plays it, if their argument has previously been based on them not technically falling under the last injunction

 

[9cardomaha]

You are making sound deductions from facts and laws, however, i feel, you did not or may have not accurately deduced meaning of the two non-ambigous words (in red, screenshot).

Thanks Netoo, your points are valid - i was only trying to state that Z believe they have a loophole, hence why they continue to work and are disregarding the injunction. I agree with your points, DLA definitely ontop of this, but those arguments are not for this current period (only once the tribunal has been established at ICC...

My concern has been the massive value of the Manono project by far out ways any penalties suffered

I've had the same concern, even if damages amount to 150mil and Z foots the bill, its still a steal for what Manono holds. But i've mentioned previously that the idiots already valued it for us with that claim of $1b+ for 25% essentially, so our 60% can easily be argued in the damages count of $2.4b and upwards.

All in all, i am just providing my own thoughts - I trust in DLA to bring it all home. There are so many moving parts its not just about focusing on what is occurring in a single case, but the entire shitstorm which is the days of our DRC lives.

 

[TLH]

Are you expecting China/Cominiere to follow ICSID orders ?

I take the view AVZ have done everything possible to enforce their legal rights and are continuing to do so…as we have learnt it is impossible to predict the behaviour of these evil parties but our fight won’t stop.
DRC are fully aware they are entangled in a political mess caused by their inability to enforce their own laws- this global reflection will continue to damage them and has made a mockery of their democracy.
This is all stating the obvious but as there are so many negative rabbit holes, staying focused on the massive upside is what keeps me sane.
I remain hopeful also, we are now getting global support from many governments who are aware and appalled with the corrupt ways Zijin conduct business to take advantage of third world countries (Nigel not advertising this support).
Stay positive people- besides showing our support for AVZ and helping to expose the corruption, there is little else we can do.

 

[cruiser51]

Some weekend reading:

https://www.iisd.org/system/files/2023-09/india-lithium-sourcing-roadmap.pdf