AVZ Discussion 2022

[Carlos Danger]

I'm wondering at what point AVZ management actually knew, sounds like this potentially all happened without their knowledge during covid times.

My thoughts as well . How does that info not leak one way or the other ?

AVZ management knew immediately. Appeal was lodged 7 days after original judgement.

 

[Hudnut]

Announcement says:

View attachment 48611

Yes, that's the hearing itself and handing down a judgement. I get that.
Once that's been done, you need to tell the person you've tried in absentia that you reckon they owe you money if you want to collect it, yes?

 

[Samus]

Yes, that's the hearing itself and handing down a judgement. I get that.
Once that's been done, you need to tell the person you've tried in absentia that you reckon they owe you money if you want to collect it, yes?

I was asking at what point AVZ knew, Carlos has clarified that.
So really yes they did withhold this information from shareholders, that was the angle really.
First I remember of it was the article in geopolis magazine or whatever that dodgy publication is.

 

[Hudnut]

AVZ management knew immediately. Appeal was lodged 3 days after original judgement.
View attachment 48612
View attachment 48613

And if AVZ has told us this when they knew, then SHs would have had an inkling that not all was necessarily as rosy and straightforward as winking, champagne on ice Nige would have us believe. Months before our cash was tied up in suspension.
So while they may or may not be doing a good job with the current corruption clusterduck, no-one can tell me they've done a wonderful job keeping shareholders abreast of relevant information they need to manage their investment.

I might have place more weight on scuttlebutt just prior to suspension if I'd known this, and avoided this crap.
A far as I'm concerned, any good work the BoD does to recover this just gets them back to even. Not worth bonuses.

 

[Spikerama]

Sorry I quoted you out of context...

"Now let's hop over to how AVZ do it, which is basically me copying and pasting from the above paragraph. Verbose, boring, mumbo jumbo. Basically a big TLDR every time. And yes, yes ,yes, I do get it. They need to do things this way as a requirement to shareholders but they could've also added to these releases and take a leaf out of the most basic advertising principles manual which is have a personality and keep it simple because most people don't have the bandwidth to do their own shit in the daily let alone digest reams of verbose, boring, mumbo jumbo. Especially when it looks like it has the personality of a dial tone.

I've offered to help Nigel before, via proxy and never heard a sniff back so I don't know how to solve it but what I do know is if I was an uninitiated Shareholder, who's not across the entire saga and I was trying to make sense of why I can't access my money and I get the choice of "apparently" clear, concise, visually appealing solution on a way forward > up against multi-paged A4 announcements which seems too much to understand, with no brand or personality and a bunch of potty mouthed, ALL CAPS twitter warriors seemingly aligning with them... I know which side I identify with."

Another point apart from the obvious - should Nigel be accepting advertising / marketing advice from a random person on Social Media? I sincerely hope not.

Do you think that a simple "advertising campaign" (visually appealing solution as you put it) could explain the complex matters that the BOD are dealing with? Sometimes simplicity isn't the answer.

"If you look at MMGA and how they have presented their argument they have done a very good at coming across as professional and well reasoned despite what we informed shareholders know about them. Their website is slick."

I've never thought that the MMGA website was at all slick. It looked like a cheaply put together off the shelf type setup. They even cloned Donald Trump's catchphrase. Not impressive at all.

Differences in opinion are what makes the world interesting.

Another point apart from the obvious - should Nigel be accepting advertising / marketing advice from a random person on Social Media? I sincerely hope not.

Of course I don't think that. All relationships for any company need to be vetted with proper due diligence to ensure the right fit and obviously with sensitive material this is even more paramount. But it all starts with making contact. If someone is offering pro-bono work surely you would investigate. (obviously larger issues on the mind but here we are)

Do you think that a simple "advertising campaign" (visually appealing solution as you put it) could explain the complex matters that the BOD are dealing with? Sometimes simplicity isn't the answer.

You are confusing advertising campaigns with Brand.
Campaigns are temporary solutions and are often very short lived whereas a brand is built over time. Campaigns are selling a promise whereas brand is selling a feeling.

I've never thought that the MMGA website was at all slick. It looked like a cheaply put together off the shelf type setup. They even cloned Donald Trump's catchphrase. Not impressive at all.

I agree, it's very cookie cutter kind of stuff and the tagline is an unfortunate call back to a recalcitrant loser and worrying era. But to the less discerning eye it does the trick effectively and easy to breeze through.

Differences in opinion are what makes the world interesting.

Yes and this morning you had the opinion that it would be a great idea to turn CCK into a tranny and post it on social media.

Yay "opinions". Nailed it.

 

[Remark]

Another point apart from the obvious - should Nigel be accepting advertising / marketing advice from a random person on Social Media? I sincerely hope not.

Of course I don't think that. All relationships for any company need to be vetted with proper due diligence to ensure the right fit and obviously with sensitive material this is even more paramount. But it all starts with making contact. If someone is offering pro-bono work surely you would investigate. (obviously larger issues on the mind but here we are)

Do you think that a simple "advertising campaign" (visually appealing solution as you put it) could explain the complex matters that the BOD are dealing with? Sometimes simplicity isn't the answer.

You are confusing advertising campaigns with Brand.
Campaigns are temporary solutions and are often very short lived whereas a brand is built over time. Campaigns are selling a promise whereas brand is selling a feeling.

I've never thought that the MMGA website was at all slick. It looked like a cheaply put together off the shelf type setup. They even cloned Donald Trump's catchphrase. Not impressive at all.

I agree, it's very cookie cutter kind of stuff and the tagline is an unfortunate call back to a recalcitrant loser and worrying era. But to the less discerning eye it does the trick effectively and easy to breeze through.

Differences in opinion are what makes the world interesting.

Yes and this morning you had the opinion that it would be a great idea to turn CCK into a tranny and post it on social media.

Yay "opinions". Nailed it.

I take offence to the term "tranny" - I think the correct term is "cross dresser" - not very inclusive of you there Bud!

Anyway, it's pointless having a discussion with a person that is always right.

 

[Carlos Danger]

I was asking at what point AVZ knew, Carlos has clarified that.
So really yes they did withhold this information from shareholders, that was the angle really.

The information was spurious and without merit. Sensu stricto.

As long as AVZ win at the ICC or get Cong to admit the creation of the share certificate was valid they didn't need to disclose the judgement as the proceedings were heard on a false pretence stemming from a misunderstanding or more likely blatant ignoring of the dispute resolution terms outlined in Article 11.1 of the Dathcom JVA imo

 

[Hudnut]

The information was spurious and without merit. Sensu stricto.

Except we are currently looking at negotiating a settlement to expedite clearing it up so we can get out of suspension and maybe get an ML.
Nige can claim "spurious and without merit" on as many things as he likes. It doesn't mean it doesn't have a material impact on SHs.

An adverse finding on litigation from a court in the country we are operating in, is still worthy of disclosure regardless of how spurious or meritorious it is.

 

[Spikerama]

I take offence to the term "tranny" - I think the correct term is "cross dresser" - not very inclusive of you there Bud!

Anyway, it's pointless having a discussion with a person that is always right.

No the correct term is transvestite because... as if the idea wasn't bad enough, you used the Minister of Portfolio's body.

Which means he had a vagina.

 

[Carlos Danger]

Except we are currently looking at negotiating a settlement to expedite clearing it up so we can get out of suspension and maybe get an ML.
Nige can claim "spurious and without merit" on as many things as he likes. It doesn't mean it doesn't have a material impact on SHs.

An adverse finding on litigation from a court in the country we are operating in, is still worthy of disclosure regardless of how spurious or meritorious it is.

Yeah a settlement based on Cong admitting the certificate was valid and all of his criminal claims were bullshit

It's a ridiculously tight rope that AVZ management are walking with this one but they are legally correct in not disclosing as long as they win at the ICC or settle with Cong. Don't forget the ministerial decree awarding the ML for the south was done 4 months after this judgement. These proceedings are not the reason we went into suspension imo

Saying that I would have disclosed it with an immediate ICC arbitration claim against Dathomir and proper explanation to the market if I were them as trust with shareholders is more important than being technically legally right

 

[Remark]

The big question is who put sand in yours.

 

[Dazmac66]

Thought Bubble: How the hell can the Yanks standby and watch the Chinese steal one of the largest, purist lithium deposits on the face of this earth(from one of its closest allies) and then carry on with this trillion dollar IRA in an attempt to overcome China's dominance of strategic metals and REE. Not to mention the Australian governments wall of silence! Something doesn't add up. AVZ, after nearly 2 years, are obviously on their own in fending off the parasites. I am not suggesting the CATH deal be questioned in any way but could the supply agreement with CATH be the reason we have been shunned by the US and indeed our own government.
The silence is baffling!!

 

[wombat74]

MB very quiet of late .

 

[Bray]

MB very quiet of late .

He’s sick of everyone’s shit

 

[Carlos Danger]

Thought Bubble: How the hell can the Yanks standby and watch the Chinese steal one of the largest, purist lithium deposits on the face of this earth(from one of its closest allies) and then carry on with this trillion dollar IRA in an attempt to overcome China's dominance of strategic metals and REE. Not to mention the Australian governments wall of silence! Something doesn't add up. AVZ, after nearly 2 years, are obviously on their own in fending off the parasites. I am not suggesting the CATH deal be questioned in any way but could the supply agreement with CATH be the reason we have been shunned by the US and indeed our own government.
The silence is baffling!!

 

[Dave Evans]

Except we are currently looking at negotiating a settlement to expedite clearing it up so we can get out of suspension and maybe get an ML.
Nige can claim "spurious and without merit" on as many things as he likes. It doesn't mean it doesn't have a material impact on SHs.

An adverse finding on litigation from a court in the country we are operating in, is still worthy of disclosure regardless of how spurious or meritorious it is.

Nut, I hope @Carlos Danger has answered your questions around disclosure to your satisfaction, but if not

I worked out last year when we went into suspension why our BOD didn’t disclose all the issues they were dealing with behind the scenes (and as we know the issues in question went into the year before that)

I’m not surprised that shareholders who haven’t been long time stock traders - investors never worked it out, but I’m sure there’s a couple of of experienced investors here who did and haven’t verbalised the reasons here

I’m not going to tell people why, if people haven’t worked out why that’s not my problem, and I couldn’t give a shit about others saying “why can’t you just say it” or “why talk in riddles” or any other bullshit like that.

If you’re not experienced enough to know, then maybe you have a few more years of trading - investing to do, and I mean holding 20 or more companies, spending 8 hours a day researching those companies and staying on top of all the issues behind every one of them

And I’ll tell you this much, there isn’t a single company on the ASX that would have been in the same position as AVZ and disclosed every issue it was dealing with behind the scenes. The most important factor to me is the fact that everything they have done has been legal

 

[wombat74]

After MMGA's fate is known surely with only $11 mil in the bank our enemies will wait to see if we can do a CR ? The sooner a CR is done the better . For now 2023 is done and dusted . IMO

 

[9cardomaha]

Update from me on ICC:

15% case JCM v AVZ, i believe we submitted request for the entire case be thrown out since the north has been returned (2nd Nov submissions)
- expected verdict on request next week.

Request to Increase Emergency Injunction fine from 50,000 Euros to 150,000 Euros per day (2nd Nov submissions)
- Expected verdict on request next week.

Jurisdictional hearing which occured in October won't have a verdict until 2024 Feb, but the request to have it thrown out will likely make this point moot.

 

[9cardomaha]

Update from me on ICC:

15% case JCM v AVZ, i believe we submitted request for the entire case be thrown out since the north has been returned (2nd Nov submissions)
- expected verdict on request next week.

Request to Increase Emergency Injunction fine from 50,000 Euros to 150,000 Euros per day (2nd Nov submissions)
- Expected verdict on request next week.

Jurisdictional hearing which occured in October won't have a verdict until 2024 Feb, but the request to have it thrown out will likely make this point moot.

I will also add that ZJ tried to change the arbitrator who granted us the Emergency Injunction for 50,000 to some other judge, but was unsuccessful - so the chances it gets increased is looking good.

But i wonder when we will seek enforcement of the injunction. that'll put a dent in ZJxCominiere's coffers.

 

[Winenut]

Update from me on ICC:

15% case JCM v AVZ, i believe we submitted request for the entire case be thrown out since the north has been returned (2nd Nov submissions)
- expected verdict on request next week.

Request to Increase Emergency Injunction fine from 50,000 Euros to 150,000 Euros per day (2nd Nov submissions)
- Expected verdict on request next week.

Jurisdictional hearing which occured in October won't have a verdict until 2024 Feb, but the request to have it thrown out will likely make this point moot.

On first point presumably because Zijin/Jin Cheng asked for illegal monies $33m for Dathcom 15% now instead be applied as payment for the North section PR 15775 and therefore they are not part of Dathcom JV