AVZ Discussion 2022

[Underwaterdark]

Morning All,

I only just read the Arbitration update.
Is my thinking right that:

Once we have the preliminary question hearing on the 5th and 6th of Oct, assuming it goes in our favour, all of the other pieces will start to fall in to place?

-Other ICC cases will be somewhat invalidated.
-International sign that we have done the right thing and followed processes.
-DRC Govt will think much harder about letting it get to ICSID formally.

The announcements 'hopeful' resolution can become a reality.

 

[Mr Inappropriate]

Is anyone expecting Jin Chen/Zijin to be a no show in Paris ?

if turning up gives them a lever to cause further delay, then yes.

 

[Mr Inappropriate]

Is that the same as a great relationship with the upper echelons of the drc government. 2 years and what? This announcement sooths all and says nothing. What a fucken wank.

That’s a fair criticism from the preceding and early days of this shit-show - it seems now that AVZ was unaware they were being played like a fiddle by all and sundry.

My recollection is that not so long ago we heard that no-one from government would even talk to us. Now that Mupande has moved on we’ve seen and heard about the re-establishment of hight level dialogue with government. That’s not nothing - it provides some hope at least.

 

[marksmann007]

Would it be an idea for AVZ management to have this latest announcement and any future relevant releases accurately typed up in French and sent directly to all high level government officials they are having ongoing negotiations with just to be certain they remain fully informed?

 

[John25]

Welcome to Thursday …AGM 8 weeks away …

 

[oxxa23]

Morning All,

I only just read the Arbitration update.
Is my thinking right that:

Once we have the preliminary question hearing on the 5th and 6th of Oct, assuming it goes in our favour, all of the other pieces will start to fall in to place?

-Other ICC cases will be somewhat invalidated.
-International sign that we have done the right thing and followed processes.
-DRC Govt will think much harder about letting it get to ICSID formally.

The announcements 'hopeful' resolution can become a reality.

with regards to ICC... this first case with jin cheng has no connection what so ever to dathomir's claims against AVZ... so it wont effect that in the slightest.... Having said that, not worried about the dathomir case in the slightest.... cong sold it, took the cash, then cried poor when the lithium tide had turned...

 

[Xerof]

Could be

 

[Carlos Danger]

with regards to ICC... this first case with jin cheng has no connection what so ever to dathomir's claims against AVZ... so it wont effect that in the slightest.... Having said that, not worried about the dathomir case in the slightest.... cong sold it, took the cash, then cried poor when the lithium tide had turned...

Cong never took the cash. But he recieved it. Which is legally good enough.

The Dathomir cases are the most open and shut contract law examples I have ever seen. It is extraordinary that arbitration takes so long for something like this. The ICC is a joke regarding timetables and the ability of claimants to delay proceedings like Zijin have been doing.

 

[Carlos Danger]

You are not concerned about a DRC judge that will almost certainly be paid off by the Chinese to rule against AVZ ?

According to AVZ the SPA's contained a clause for arbitration outside the DRC. I've never seen the agreements but I'd say they have similar clauses to the Dathcom JVA regarding going through the ICC. Even without a specific clause in the SPA's any dispute between shareholders of Dathcom must go through the ICC anyway under Article 11 of the JVA.

The fact that Cong didn't follow these rules when trying to weasel his way out of the contracts he intended to be bound by shows that he knows that he has no chance of winning based on the facts of the case. Worth remembering AVZ's claims against Dathomir at the ICC include damages.

 

[Hodlandwin69]

So with the ICC being public info, can we attend the ICC in person like Australian courts?

 

[oxxa23]

According to AVZ the SPA's contained a clause for arbitration outside the DRC. I've never seen the agreements but I'd say they have similar clauses to the Dathcom JVA regarding going through the ICC. Even without a specific clause in the SPA's any dispute between shareholders of Dathcom must go through the ICC anyway under Article 11 of the JVA.

The fact that Cong didn't follow these rules when trying to weasel his way out of the contracts he intended to be bound by shows that he knows that he has no chance of winning based on the facts of the case. Worth remembering AVZ's claims against Dathomir at the ICC include damages.

yep.... fair chance dathomir will be the next to liquidate as soon as they lose against AVZ.... i bet you cong has already fleeced any assets out of dathomir to try and reduce exposure....

 

[Roon]

Based on the series of successes AVZ has had at every challenge from the other parties:

We want confidentiality at hearings - ICC says fuck off, it's public
We want to combine the hearings into one - ICC says fuck off, they remain separate, and by the way, see you on October 5th

And the revelation that DATHOMIR have moved in the DRC for dissolution of DATHCOM, based on two disputed measures, JVA terminated and 13359 transferred, basically on behalf of COMINIERE because they are injuncted, (fucking laughable)

leads me to think that ICC can already see the claims are vexatious and spurious. Of course it will use the full process if needed, but I would not be surprised if they were a no-show

JMT

Not quite every challenge. Jin Cheng prevailed in the 1v3 arbitrator dispute. That could backfire on them though given what others have raised as to the JVA mandating 3.

One question I've got is that an earlier release said the jurisdictional challenge does not rule on the merits of the sale itself to JC and that this would require separate proceedings. Where would these be held, surely not in the DRC? Perhaps it wouldn't be needed, as a succesful jurisdictional challenge would suggest that the ICC indicate tangentially that JC arent covered by the JVA and that the sale was thus invalid. Also i guess the seperate proceedings could be meaning the case against Cominiere, which would ostensibly be covering the same ground. So the Cominiere ICC cases are pretty criticial IMO.

Agree that Dathomirs challenge is laughable, but I still think it's of concern. Our opponents have got shady rulings passed in DRC courts before, and Dathcom is a DRC-registered entity. Sure the JVA indicates an ICC pathway for its dispute resolutions, however if they can get Dathcom derigestered following a dodgy DRC court ruling then that could open up a number of tricky issues, and would be further fodder to muddy the waters as part of their disinformation campaign. Hopefully AVZ lawyers can bat this one away.

I think though outside this we seem in good stead at the ICC. Just need to get this first jurisdictional challenge in the bag, and that should help set the tone for what follows. While we are awaiting the long ICC ruling process, Then hopefully in the interim we can get a timeline set for the key Cominiere challenges.

 

[wombat74]

Not quite every challenge. Jin Cheng prevailed in the 1v3 arbitrator dispute. That could backfire on them though given what others have raised as to the JVA mandating 3.

One question I've got is that an earlier release said the jurisdictional challenge does not rule on the merits of the sale itself to JC and that this would require separate proceedings. Where would these be held, surely not in the DRC? Perhaps it wouldn't be needed, as a succesful jurisdictional challenge would suggest that the ICC indicate tangentially that JC arent covered by the JVA and that the sale was thus invalid. Also i guess the seperate proceedings could be meaning the case against Cominiere, which would ostensibly be covering the same ground. So the Cominiere ICC cases are pretty criticial IMO.

Agree that Dathomirs challenge is laughable, but I still think it's of concern. Our opponents have got shady rulings passed in DRC courts before, and Dathcom is a DRC-registered entity. Sure the JVA indicates an ICC pathway for its dispute resolutions, however if they can get Dathcom derigestered following a dodgy DRC court ruling then that could open up a number of tricky issues, and would be further fodder to muddy the waters as part of their disinformation campaign. Hopefully AVZ lawyers can bat this one away.

I think though outside this we seem in good stead at the ICC. Just need to get this first jurisdictional challenge in the bag, and that should help set the tone for what follows. While we are awaiting the long ICC ruling process, Then hopefully in the interim we can get a timeline set for the key Cominiere challenges.

So if we bring it back to basics it's still about stall tactics . The ball is in Felix's court and I can't see him doing anything prior the election . Can't afford to p1ss off the Chinese at election time . If he loses the election then it's not his problem . What does AVZ still mentioning ICSID as an option tell us ? Glad the AGM isn't far away .

 

[TheCount]

Welcome to Thursday …AGM 8 weeks away …
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I'll be dancing around like that when all this is said and done!
TC.

 

[BRICK]

What did i miss yesterday? hahah

Ive read this mother fucker about 5 times.

One standout for me is, which i assume would have been scrutinised by the legal team :

"AVZ believes Jin Cheng, Dathomir and Cominière are acting in concert to crystalise disputes with AVZ and disrupt and delay the development of the Manono Project with the aim of seizing control of the Manono Project. Their conduct has contributed to the delay by the DRC in granting the exploitation permit and therefore led to the commencement of the ICSID proceedings"

The reason for this standing out to me is that they have called it out clearly which means they better have, or do have, good fucking proof that stands up in an actual court of law because to make statments (an accusation) like that, you want to be sure you have the evidence.



Back in your box for now Gina, im happy to watch this play out but goota stay out of DRC courts?

 

[Bonsoir]

What did i miss yesterday? hahah

Ive read this mother fucker about 5 times.

One standout for me is, which i assume would have been scrutinised by the legal team :

"AVZ believes Jin Cheng, Dathomir and Cominière are acting in concert to crystalise disputes with AVZ and disrupt and delay the development of the Manono Project with the aim of seizing control of the Manono Project. Their conduct has contributed to the delay by the DRC in granting the exploitation permit and therefore led to the commencement of the ICSID proceedings"

The reason for this standing out to me is that they have called it out clearly which means they better have, or do have, good fucking proof that stands up in an actual court of law because to make statments (an accusation) like that, you want to be sure you have the evidence.



Back in your box for now Gina, im happy to watch this play out but goota stay out of DRC courts?

I agree AVZ better have proof however it doesn’t deter cheng, dathomir & cominiere being openly corrupt lying criminal scum whenever and wherever they like, it’s unjust that it’s allowed to get this far.

Thank fuck we live in the age of social media with the goings on otherwise we would be only reading tommy lies.

 

[geo_au]

What did i miss yesterday? hahah

Ive read this mother fucker about 5 times.

One standout for me is, which i assume would have been scrutinised by the legal team :

"AVZ believes Jin Cheng, Dathomir and Cominière are acting in concert to crystalise disputes with AVZ and disrupt and delay the development of the Manono Project with the aim of seizing control of the Manono Project. Their conduct has contributed to the delay by the DRC in granting the exploitation permit and therefore led to the commencement of the ICSID proceedings"

The reason for this standing out to me is that they have called it out clearly which means they better have, or do have, good fucking proof that stands up in an actual court of law because to make statments (an accusation) like that, you want to be sure you have the evidence.



Back in your box for now Gina, im happy to watch this play out but goota stay out of DRC courts?

Avz doe have proof that is why they are confident.

 

[TDITD]

So the first part of ICC case involving Jen Cheng is to be held 5/6 October.

In part this is a general ‘fuck you’ to levertv on X, who claimed it had been moved to end of October. Confirming status as troll.

Good bit of further detail, and pleasing to see Cong and co are now REALLY desperate with their futile attempts to overrule ICC and ISCID cases that are all in train

I had resolved that Jin Cheng were comfortably taking the piss out of the ICC on an extreme level. Culminating in maybe a November meeting with more stalling techniques thrown in to push a hearing back further. Based on their unabated actions to date.

However it seems ICC have scratched around and found some semblance of a spine, personally quite pleasantly surprised here.

The preliminary question is listed for hearing on 5 an 6 October

The preliminary question is an issue of jurisdiction, our pre-emptive rights were not given, Jin Cheng are not even in Dathcom there-fore have no rights. The IGF report will come out over these glorious two days . Jin Cheng is fucked and it shall be soon.

A BIG FUCK YOU is on its way, around a month after 5/6 Oct (from hungover memory, this is the general timeframe it takes ICC to reach a decision after a hearing). This is the domino to be knocked over that will lead the way for us.

After reading the supremely confident announcement based around their rights and legal battles, we got a piss-weak 'AVZ remains hopeful a resolution can be achieved before further steps need to be taken via the ICSID'

This is not AVZ's fault at all.
I kind of took that as our discussions are simply same same that they always have been, bullshit talk from DRC, bullshit promises, bullshit action, ZERO results, hence ICSID and AVZ are just reminding them once again.

BRING ON OCTOBER 5TH

 

[TDITD]

"The ICSID Tribunal has not yet been fully constituted and AVZ remains hopeful a resolution can be achieved before further steps need to be taken in the ICSID proceedings"
I really hope the company have put a short-term deadline for DRC to put forward a resolution hence a ministerial decree for a mining license. If not, push the button hard on the way to the ICSID proceedings. Please don't give in any further excuses.

This is how I'm interpreting this. Maybe things have once again stalled with DRC ministers pocketing more Chinese flavored snacks, and AVZ are politely saying fuck around and find out. Maybe things are going 'well', however we are simply not as naive anymore and are pushing for signatures on dotted lines. The DRC only seem to respond to Chinese tactics, we can't bribe but we can strongarm with the ICSID.
ICC is good, but it very much seems the ICSID has been their kryptonite.
Excellent work BOD.

 

[TDITD]

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I don't know why but I find this gif reply highly amusing, always makes me laugh