Talga Updates and Discussion thread

[Pharvest]

View attachment 89159

https://talgagroup.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/app/uploads/2025/07/30104824/20250730-TALGA-FYQ4-Report-and-5B-ASX.pdf

There's not much new to discover. I noticed the following:

Completed capital investment in larger coating and shaping equipment at the EVA anode plant
…and:
The Company completed capital investment in larger coating and shaping equipment at the EVA anode plant as part of its production scale up plans.
___________________

The Company also made considerable progress on key project milestones in FYQ4 and we saw some encouraging signs for the natural graphite anode market emanate from the heightened trade tensions and US & EU government policies affecting battery materials.
___________________

Nyobolt has validated Talnode ® -C in its proprietary fast-charging battery technology being deployed in a range of applications such as AI data centres, heavy-duty vehicles and robotic warehouses.

A mate told me that the truck manufacturers (specifically he meant MAN, Scania and Daimler) here in Europe are now fully committed to electrification and have decided against hydrogen. Unfortunately, he can't remember where he read that, so here are just a few general articles that point in that direction:

Gearing up for fully electric heavy vehicles
...DC charging market in Europe and North America to have a 37% compound annual growth rate until 2030

Gearing up for fully electric heavy vehicles - The European Magazine

John Granby and Erik Kanerva of Kempower explain why fleet operators will need to consider adopting the Megawatt Charging System

the-european.eu

Truck makers prepare for mass production of electric trucks

Truck makers prepare for mass production of electric trucks | EVBoosters

Starting in 2024, European truck makers such as Daimler, MAN, Scania, and Volvo will concentrate on bringing electric trucks to the mass market for all vehicle segments, including long-haul. Around 30 zero-emission truck models have already been announced for mass production in Europe by 2025.

evboosters.com

Here's the context related to you Australians:
Europe is racing ahead on electric trucks, but here’s why Australia can’t be a carbon copy
https://thedriven.io/2025/06/26/eur...ut-heres-why-australia-cant-be-a-carbon-copy/

As far as I know, you don't have your own global truck producers Down Under, so I assume that you will adapt your rules to this trend and, for example, extend the break times.)

___________________

Customer receipts tripled from the previous quarter, driven by repeat orders and increasingly larger-scale requests for our high-performance anode products, which are undergoing rigorous long term qualification processes.


Perhaps some of the new enquiries and qualification programmes come from this sector?

In FYQ4, escalating geopolitical and trade tensions saw NATO nations including Sweden agree to a defence expenditure target of 5% of GDP by 2035 (previously 2%). In December 2024, NATO designated graphite as one of 12 critical raw minerals “integral to the manufacture of advanced defence systems and equipment”*. Talga’s graphite mine, part of the Vittangi Anode Project, has been declared a Strategic Project under the European Commission’s Critical Raw Materials Act (ASX:TLG 26/3/2025).
In June, the European Commission introduced the “EU Defence Readiness Omnibus” package, unlocking €800 billion in defence investments over the next four years. These reforms are designed to accelerate the EU’s defence investments, including in critical substances such as graphite.
* https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_231765.htm

_________________________

And that explains the latest news at Bergsstaten:

The Nunasvaara nr 2 tenement expired upon the Nunasvaara South Exploitation Concession entering into force during the quarter, as shown in Appendices 1 and 2. Talga has reapplied for the exploration area not covered by the mining concession which is a new tenement called Nunasvaara nr 4.

e.g.

Sweden, home of TLGs graphite mine(s)

Tomorrow a decision will be made on the important land allocation. As a reminder: the land allocation can only take place with the granted processing concession. So for this we just have to wait until tomorrow.

thestockexchange.com.au

_______
I'll believe what it says about the approval process (plan, land allocation, grand opening) when I see it. The endeavour is definitely there, but what matters is what is decided and how. And I'd rather wait for that than speculate. The years have shown that this is better, even if we have been pleasantly surprised once.

Good post mate, appreciate it. Hydrogen for road transportation I believe is one of the few things about the future Musk actually had right years ago when he called the idea 'hydrogen fool cells'. Similarly I don't have any faith in solid state batteries, they are destined to be the beta tape to vhs in my opinion.

 

[BigDog]

We should be due for a Quarterly webinar in the next week or two. A great post over at the other place raises questions, no doubt we have all been thinking, that really need answering to give comfort to us humble little investors.

I stand steadfast in my belief this company will be a huge success, unless we have all been told porcupines over the last few years, however…..

The little cap raises all the while having a retreating SP are wearing thin;
The lack of committed timelines will always raise questions about the companies ability to progress or understanding of the complete process to progress;
Continued slight variances in what has previously been communicated either means the company is unsure of itself, or what we are being told / leading us to believe is not correct;
Lastly, for mine, NDA NDShmay! Means nothing if everything is covered in secrecy while the SP continues to be depleted and nothing a substance is visible to holders.

Still remaining faithful and holding strong, just needed a rant!

Cheers

 

[teilenswert]

https://talgagroup.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/app/uploads/2025/08/13080012/2928706.pdf

 

[BigDog]

Well, what great announcement!

Am I jumping the gun by saying they had this planned the whole time with an offtake to come before Loyalty Options expire so us “die hard” believers are rewarded?

Possibly so but the next few weeks will tell the tale.

Nonetheless, this announcement is, I believe, much bigger than the market understands at this point (n.b. I am certainly no expert in this field).

Is it time to load up more than I (we) already are in this company? Thinking on this matter is going in overdrive for me today. Perhaps a few more shares won’t hurt

 

[Semmel]

https://talgagroup.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/app/uploads/2025/08/13080012/2928706.pdf

What an interesting announcement. Congratulations to Talga for this achievement! To my knowledge, they are the first to announce a reasonable process to recycle Anode material to new Anode. And there is a good reason for that. Let me explain. Also, a disclaimer, this is my understanding and might be flawed. If its wrong, please point it out to me, I am eager to learn.

When batteries are made, the lithium is in the Cathode. When it is charged for the first time, the lithium ions travel through the electrolyte to the anode. At first contact, at the surface of the anode particles, the lithium, electrolyte and anode chemically react, which form the SEI layer, which eats some of the lithium. Its a chemical reaction at the surface. Thats why anode particles are shaped to a certain size. If they are too large, the lithium ions have a hard time entering to the inner part of the particles. If the particles are too small, the surface area is too large and the SEI layer takes up too much. So there is a carefully maintained balance. During operation of the batteries, the particles break and fracture. That increases the surface area of the particles, which increases the amount of SEI layer inside the anode. This reduces the battery capacity because it eats up lithium.

The breaking apart of particles and forming of new SEI is what ages the battery. To recycle, the particles would have to be mended. Thats impossible to do without expensive methods similar to forming new crystals using synthetic forming. (synthetic grows graphite crystals in a solution with intense heat and pressure). So no one could do it. Talga seems to have found a way to clean the SEI layer from the anode and with some magic either bond the graphite particles together, filter out too small particles, or grow new ones. Maybe forming meta particles that limit the surface area but allow free travel of ions without forming too much SEI. I dont know how they do it but there is some magic involved. Again, congratulations!

Now.. coming to the announcement. I read it today morning and 3 things stand out. And that is not as much as what is said in the announcement, but what is MISSING. 3 instances!

Multiple global scale battery manufacturers and potential commercial partners are conducting test work and qualification of Talnode ® -R and discussions are advancing regarding funding and site development in the USA, UK, Middle East and Asia.

Isnt it interesting that the one market that is missing is the EU? How is the EU missing here? This must be a signal to politicians. I dont know what went on behind closed doors, but leaving the EU out here is significant.

Results demonstrated the preservation of graphite crystallinity and interlayer spacing, energy density >350 mAh/g, surface area <2 m 2/g, purity in excess of 99.9%C and first cycle efficiency >95% and excellent cyclability, all of which are matching the characteristics of new synthetic anode.

Many numbers and thank you for providing them! However, the one metric that is maybe most important is cycle live. We have "exellent cyclability". Yeah, good. I think Talga is keeping the performance of their tech close to their chest. As they should be. And no serious player would belive the curve without testing anyway even if they were to publish it. In any case, its interesting that the cycle live curves are missing.

And the last part that is missing, maybe the most important one, is that there is no mention on how this method fairs economically to new graphite. Is Talnode-R at a similar price point as Synthetic with the same performance? Its the question that makes or breaks this method. If its not economically fiesible, there is no hope for it. It certainly READS like its fiesible, but is it? Thats why the market reaction is muted in my opinion. No one found an economically viable way to recycle Anode. Is this it? Is it not? Who knows? I hope it is, but as always with "breakthrough announcements" in battery tech, take everything with a grain of salt. Talga is no exception here. In this case, I believe the tech is there. Talga wouldnt lie. But is it economical? Who knows!? I dont trust this stuff unless and until there is hard evidence. Good luck us!

 

[mpk1980]

Isnt it interesting that the one market that is missing is the EU? How is the EU missing here? This must be a signal to politicians. I dont know what went on behind closed doors, but leaving the EU out here is significant.

Is it time to load up more than I (we) already are in this company? Thinking on this matter is going in overdrive for me today. Perhaps a few more shares won’t hurt

Loved reading your thoughts @Semmel and @BigDog.

I think the curse with Talga we all can relate to is... can you ever own enough and feel satisfied!?!

Perhaps the EU was left out of the announcement due to the fact that Alltilium and Aurubis are two companies seen to be flying the flag for EU! The ann also made reference to TLG initially testing mass graphite waste from 5-10 different European battery recyclers.....goes to show how thorough they are with things!

I was very happy to hear Mark mention India in the discussions because i don't quite hear it being mentioned in the media and their market alone would be quite staggering. We know Claudio is already heading up Reliance's efforts to setup cell manufacturing plants in India so its quite obvious what that could develop into?!?!?!

Many numbers and thank you for providing them! However, the one metric that is maybe most important is cycle live. We have "exellent cyclability". Yeah, good. I think Talga is keeping the performance of their tech close to their chest. As they should be. And no serious player would belive the curve without testing anyway even if they were to publish it. In any case, its interesting that the cycle live curves are missing.

Possibly the cyclability numbers were left out because its all too new and there haven't been ample time to get through to the upper bound numbers? I am guessing they have met the minimum cyclability metrics required to make Talnode-R a viable product but we will know the real numbers later on. Really liked the following statement in the announcement "all of which are matching the characteristics of new synthetic anode"

And the last part that is missing, maybe the most important one, is that there is no mention on how this method fairs economically to new graphite. Is Talnode-R at a similar price point as Synthetic with the same performance?

I guess everyone has to make a judgement call on where they stand on this from TLG claims of what they have promised in the past and then delivered. I am very confident from listening to MT over the years and seeing his approach to Talnode-C and Si etc (thinking from first principles) he has only pursued Talnode-R because its economically viable and meets performance characteristic of all their customers. The biggest kicker for me is that they can incorporate it in a modular fashion to their existing plant and future battery hubs!

Here's a thought.... could the credits they receive to recycle lithium-ion cells right now work out to be cheaper than mining? Atleast in certain jurisdictions where the supply chain relies 100% on China? Oh man.... the beauty of being a technology company not just a graphite developer!

 

[ACinEur]

I would just love to see them commercialise a bit more. Amazing R&D and to be commended.
However the ability to turn promises in webinars into hard $ over many years is a big red flag.
I would like to see a new ‘Commercial CFO’ and possibly a new CEO with MT focusing on what he is good at…and that is not running a company. That sounds harsh, but as Shareholders we should be demanding the best. Look what Vulcan did with Francis Wedin stepping into the Chair role as he knew that Chris Moreno would be a better CEO..and since that point the execution on the ground has substantially uplifted…I’ve just been in Germany and seen that for myself on that one…
Anyway I really hope Talga can pull this off, I really do.
AC

 

[DAH]

I would just love to see them commercialise a bit more. Amazing R&D and to be commended.
However the ability to turn promises in webinars into hard $ over many years is a big red flag.
I would like to see a new ‘Commercial CFO’ and possibly a new CEO with MT focusing on what he is good at…and that is not running a company. That sounds harsh, but as Shareholders we should be demanding the best. Look what Vulcan did with Francis Wedin stepping into the Chair role as he knew that Chris Moreno would be a better CEO..and since that point the execution on the ground has substantially uplifted…I’ve just been in Germany and seen that for myself on that one…
Anyway I really hope Talga can pull this off, I really do.
AC

I'd be careful what you wish for there AC
One of the main drivers behind my high conviction in TLG is MT, and of course his equity in the company. You'll find many of the successful startups over time had the founder steering the ship. Having said that, I do appreciate your thinking and the apparent spinning of wheels now for years. I'm all but certain that if we knew what's hidden behind NDA's etc we'd quickly let go of any thoughts that MT can't get the job done. And let's acknowledge China's role, the NIMBY's, and recently the new US admin causing uncertainty. Remember it's much harder to hold and take no action, than to do deals that look shiny and create short term sp bumps that ultimately turn out adverse for us retail holders. Look at the tripartite deal MT looks to have walked away from. That was a huge decision clearly in hindsight to our benefit. Would another CEO/MD have made the same decision or done the deal, hit their kpi's and eventually moved on. All hail MT!

 

[BlackBeak]

What an interesting announcement. Congratulations to Talga for this achievement! To my knowledge, they are the first to announce a reasonable process to recycle Anode material to new Anode. And there is a good reason for that. Let me explain. Also, a disclaimer, this is my understanding and might be flawed. If its wrong, please point it out to me, I am eager to learn.

When batteries are made, the lithium is in the Cathode. When it is charged for the first time, the lithium ions travel through the electrolyte to the anode. At first contact, at the surface of the anode particles, the lithium, electrolyte and anode chemically react, which form the SEI layer, which eats some of the lithium. Its a chemical reaction at the surface. Thats why anode particles are shaped to a certain size. If they are too large, the lithium ions have a hard time entering to the inner part of the particles. If the particles are too small, the surface area is too large and the SEI layer takes up too much. So there is a carefully maintained balance. During operation of the batteries, the particles break and fracture. That increases the surface area of the particles, which increases the amount of SEI layer inside the anode. This reduces the battery capacity because it eats up lithium.

The breaking apart of particles and forming of new SEI is what ages the battery. To recycle, the particles would have to be mended. Thats impossible to do without expensive methods similar to forming new crystals using synthetic forming. (synthetic grows graphite crystals in a solution with intense heat and pressure). So no one could do it. Talga seems to have found a way to clean the SEI layer from the anode and with some magic either bond the graphite particles together, filter out too small particles, or grow new ones. Maybe forming meta particles that limit the surface area but allow free travel of ions without forming too much SEI. I dont know how they do it but there is some magic involved. Again, congratulations!

Now.. coming to the announcement. I read it today morning and 3 things stand out. And that is not as much as what is said in the announcement, but what is MISSING. 3 instances!



Isnt it interesting that the one market that is missing is the EU? How is the EU missing here? This must be a signal to politicians. I dont know what went on behind closed doors, but leaving the EU out here is significant.



Many numbers and thank you for providing them! However, the one metric that is maybe most important is cycle live. We have "exellent cyclability". Yeah, good. I think Talga is keeping the performance of their tech close to their chest. As they should be. And no serious player would belive the curve without testing anyway even if they were to publish it. In any case, its interesting that the cycle live curves are missing.

And the last part that is missing, maybe the most important one, is that there is no mention on how this method fairs economically to new graphite. Is Talnode-R at a similar price point as Synthetic with the same performance? Its the question that makes or breaks this method. If its not economically fiesible, there is no hope for it. It certainly READS like its fiesible, but is it? Thats why the market reaction is muted in my opinion. No one found an economically viable way to recycle Anode. Is this it? Is it not? Who knows? I hope it is, but as always with "breakthrough announcements" in battery tech, take everything with a grain of salt. Talga is no exception here. In this case, I believe the tech is there. Talga wouldnt lie. But is it economical? Who knows!? I dont trust this stuff unless and until there is hard evidence. Good luck us!

It's interesting EU wasn't mentioned specifically, however I don't think it excludes them at all.. Maybe they were just admitted because they were listing the expansion globally, vs their current market of the EU.

In the webinar they clearly mentioned an additional processing line at lulea for recycled material. And we have a Mou with Arubis (Germany based from memory?). So pretty sure they were just listing additional markets that this opens up.

 

[Stares_into_Space]

Will the ability to now recycle the black mass of batteries enable companies to justify using higher percentages of silicon in the anode side? It would seem the lower cycle life is less important with the ability to recycle. I might be assuming that is a reason more battery companies aren't doing it though.

 

[Semmel]

Will the ability to now recycle the black mass of batteries enable companies to justify using higher percentages of silicon in the anode side? It would seem the lower cycle life is less important with the ability to recycle. I might be assuming that is a reason more battery companies aren't doing it though.

I don't really follow your logic here, sorry. Can you explain in more words why there should be a connection between recycling and silicon in the anode?

 

[Semmel]

Possibly the cyclability numbers were left out because its all too new and there haven't been ample time to get through to the upper bound numbers? I am guessing they have met the minimum cyclability metrics required to make Talnode-R a viable product but we will know the real numbers later on. Really liked the following statement in the announcement "all of which are matching the characteristics of new synthetic anode"

I guess everyone has to make a judgement call on where they stand on this from TLG claims of what they have promised in the past and then delivered. I am very confident from listening to MT over the years and seeing his approach to Talnode-C and Si etc (thinking from first principles) he has only pursued Talnode-R because its economically viable and meets performance characteristic of all their customers. The biggest kicker for me is that they can incorporate it in a modular fashion to their existing plant and future battery hubs!

Here's a thought.... could the credits they receive to recycle lithium-ion cells right now work out to be cheaper than mining? Atleast in certain jurisdictions where the supply chain relies 100% on China? Oh man.... the beauty of being a technology company not just a graphite developer!

MT plays the cards they are played well in my opinion. It started with a pair of Asces, with the repository this good, followed by 7, 9, ... With swedish jurisdiction. And the River card is still not dealt. In any case, it's good to play at a different table using talnode-r for a time. It can be done in parallel, but Talga needs revenue to survive, not just pie in the sky.

On Talnode-R.. the big question is still, whether it can be produced with similar costs as new synthetic. It is very surprising to see the process exists in the first place, but given that it does, is it economically viable? And if it is not, how much incentive is necessary for it? Are customers really going to pay a premium to be independent of China? I don't see this happening yet. Maybe with Tarifs in the US, but do we know the Tarifs live long enough for a factory to be built and running before Tarifs on Chinese Anode are lifted and our product sits on a pile of dept? Who is going to take that risk?

Suppose it is profitable and suppose Talga would market Talnode-R in the US. Then it needs 2 binding contracts. First for supply of black mass and second for Talnode-R. The first could be redwood materials for instance. But the second would have us run in the loop just as before. We would need to process black mass from redwood to show the quality of Talnode-R is to spec for the battery manufacturer. I bet each combination of supplier and customer requires separate product proofing. Not something that will be done quickly. Fingers crossed!

 

[Semmel]

It's interesting EU wasn't mentioned specifically, however I don't think it excludes them at all.. Maybe they were just admitted because they were listing the expansion globally, vs their current market of the EU.

In the webinar they clearly mentioned an additional processing line at lulea for recycled material. And we have a Mou with Arubis (Germany based from memory?). So pretty sure they were just listing additional markets that this opens up.

Ahh good point. Maybe it was meant only for expanding the business to new dites, with our Sweden site being used in Europe. But then, the statement was quite misleading and could have been phrased better..

Multiple global scale battery manufacturers and potential commercial partners are conducting test
work and qualification of Talnode®-R and discussions are advancing regarding funding and site
development in the USA, UK, Middle East and Asia.

 

[BlackBeak]

MT plays the cards they are played well in my opinion. It started with a pair of Asces, with the repository this good, followed by 7, 9, ... With swedish jurisdiction. And the River card is still not dealt. In any case, it's good to play at a different table using talnode-r for a time. It can be done in parallel, but Talga needs revenue to survive, not just pie in the sky.

On Talnode-R.. the big question is still, whether it can be produced with similar costs as new synthetic. It is very surprising to see the process exists in the first place, but given that it does, is it economically viable? And if it is not, how much incentive is necessary for it? Are customers really going to pay a premium to be independent of China? I don't see this happening yet. Maybe with Tarifs in the US, but do we know the Tarifs live long enough for a factory to be built and running before Tarifs on Chinese Anode are lifted and our product sits on a pile of dept? Who is going to take that risk?

Suppose it is profitable and suppose Talga would market Talnode-R in the US. Then it needs 2 binding contracts. First for supply of black mass and second for Talnode-R. The first could be redwood materials for instance. But the second would have us run in the loop just as before. We would need to process black mass from redwood to show the quality of Talnode-R is to spec for the battery manufacturer. I bet each combination of supplier and customer requires separate product proofing. Not something that will be done quickly. Fingers crossed!

My take from the webinar is that it can be profitable for us. He mentioned that licensing the IP generally isn't profitable which is why they would look at something like a joint venture, as you capture the profits.

Also from what I've seen, the process to make Talnode-R, once you have the black mass, is the same process as to make Talnode-C from our mined graphite. I'd assume the costs should be similar given the process is the same. What could differ I guess is while it's the same process, maybe you have to do one of the steps multiple times on recycled material? Like, maybe a purification step that has to be Ru twice instead of once? No idea.

But if the costs are similar to our Talnode-C process, then if it's profitable would come down to can we buy black mass cheap enough to make it worthwhile. Can we buy it even cheaper than mining Talnode-C?

I'd guess (with nothing to back it up) that it would be yes. My thoughts being there is no use for black mass atm. Mark mentioned in the webinar that currently recyclers have to dispose it or burn it, which costs them money to do environmentally.

So why not let Talga come and take it off your hands and recycle it into something useful? Costs them less in disposal fees AND you can green up your credentials. I'm not sure we'd get it for free, but i think of it like the cars for cash, where scrappers will buy your end of life car off you to dispose of. You're hapoy because you get $200, and they can make money off the parts or scrap metal.

More realistically I think we'd pay something for it, that's how business works. And we'd prefer to have the feedstock there instead of it being scrapped. But given no alternative uses for black mass, there's no competition so recyclers can't exactly demand a massive premium.

So yeah, I think it should be quite profitable for us, maybe even more-so than mined material which we have to spend a bit to get out of the ground.

 

[Semmel]

My take from the webinar is that it can be profitable for us. He mentioned that licensing the IP generally isn't profitable which is why they would look at something like a joint venture, as you capture the profits.

Also from what I've seen, the process to make Talnode-R, once you have the black mass, is the same process as to make Talnode-C from our mined graphite. I'd assume the costs should be similar given the process is the same. What could differ I guess is while it's the same process, maybe you have to do one of the steps multiple times on recycled material? Like, maybe a purification step that has to be Ru twice instead of once? No idea.

But if the costs are similar to our Talnode-C process, then if it's profitable would come down to can we buy black mass cheap enough to make it worthwhile. Can we buy it even cheaper than mining Talnode-C?

I'd guess (with nothing to back it up) that it would be yes. My thoughts being there is no use for black mass atm. Mark mentioned in the webinar that currently recyclers have to dispose it or burn it, which costs them money to do environmentally.

So why not let Talga come and take it off your hands and recycle it into something useful? Costs them less in disposal fees AND you can green up your credentials. I'm not sure we'd get it for free, but i think of it like the cars for cash, where scrappers will buy your end of life car off you to dispose of. You're hapoy because you get $200, and they can make money off the parts or scrap metal.

More realistically I think we'd pay something for it, that's how business works. And we'd prefer to have the feedstock there instead of it being scrapped. But given no alternative uses for black mass, there's no competition so recyclers can't exactly demand a massive premium.

So yeah, I think it should be quite profitable for us, maybe even more-so than mined material which we have to spend a bit to get out of the ground.

My understanding.. please correct if wrong:

Black mass contains anode, cathode, separator (maybe) and electrolyte. I think copper and aluminum foil of the current collectors are already removed. Multiple ways from that point come to mind.

1. First you get the metals, then the graphite.

So when you have black mass, you can leach out the metals of the cathode using an acid or similar, which is the most valuable part. The waste is what is left from the process, plus all the chemicals that were used to remove the metals. Finally that is what then can be used to extract the graphite. Depending on the process that is used to remove the metals, the remaining gunk can be very different. I don't know if all processes leave the graphite in a shape that can be reused.

2. Remove the graphite first, then the metals.

I don't know if that works, or how. But if graphite can be safely removed before the metals are extracted, that might be the best option. The metals usually get dissolved out of rock using some acid when ore is processed. I guess that can be done here as well. Not sure in what state the waste is when graphite is extracted. Maybe using the floatation process talga uses to purify graphite from the mine? No idea.

3. Separate metals and graphite by one process

No idea how, but makes sense if possible.

4. If only metals OR graphite can be removed but not both, our recycling process is dead in the water as the metals are more valuable than the graphite.

 

[BlackBeak]

My understanding.. please correct if wrong:

Black mass contains anode, cathode, separator (maybe) and electrolyte. I think copper and aluminum foil of the current collectors are already removed. Multiple ways from that point come to mind.

1. First you get the metals, then the graphite.

So when you have black mass, you can leach out the metals of the cathode using an acid or similar, which is the most valuable part. The waste is what is left from the process, plus all the chemicals that were used to remove the metals. Finally that is what then can be used to extract the graphite. Depending on the process that is used to remove the metals, the remaining gunk can be very different. I don't know if all processes leave the graphite in a shape that can be reused.

2. Remove the graphite first, then the metals.

I don't know if that works, or how. But if graphite can be safely removed before the metals are extracted, that might be the best option. The metals usually get dissolved out of rock using some acid when ore is processed. I guess that can be done here as well. Not sure in what state the waste is when graphite is extracted. Maybe using the floatation process talga uses to purify graphite from the mine? No idea.

3. Separate metals and graphite by one process

No idea how, but makes sense if possible.

4. If only metals OR graphite can be removed but not both, our recycling process is dead in the water as the metals are more valuable than the graphite.

My impression is that we aren't doing any of that, the recyclers are. Mark said we're getting the damaged graphite part, we aren't doing any of the recycling part. Then we're fixing the graphite and turning it into anode. I think that's why it's more profitable for us, the recyclers have already extracted all the metals and are just left with the graphite. I probably shouldn't have said black mass, I don't think we take that, I think we take just the recycled graphite.

 

[Stares_into_Space]

I don't really follow your logic here, sorry. Can you explain in more words why there should be a connection between recycling and silicon in the anode?

I'm thinking about it like an engine in an airplane. You have to overhaul the engine every 2000 hour or so. Right now, with batteries you have to throw the "engine" away when it gets tired. If you can get an engine easily rebuilt at the end of its life for less than the cost of a brand new engine, then you can worry less about how reliable it is (more power) and still not cost more.

I think I'm assuming the recycling process would be cheaper than making brand new batteries. It seems like it would be cheaper because you don't have the up front cost of getting the anode out of the ground and concentrated. Black mass might eventually be used as credit towards a new battery instead of costing money to get rid of. Was a 2am thought. Not sure

 

[Semmel]

I'm thinking about it like an engine in an airplane. You have to overhaul the engine every 2000 hour or so. Right now, with batteries you have to throw the "engine" away when it gets tired. If you can get an engine easily rebuilt at the end of its life for less than the cost of a brand new engine, then you can worry less about how reliable it is (more power) and still not cost more.

I think I'm assuming the recycling process would be cheaper than making brand new batteries. It seems like it would be cheaper because you don't have the up front cost of getting the anode out of the ground and concentrated. Black mass might eventually be used as credit towards a new battery instead of costing money to get rid of. Was a 2am thought. Not sure

At moment it is not clear that graphite recycling is profitable.. up until very recently it wasn't possible at all and I remain unconvinced until there is actual proof of profitability. Too often have announcements in the battery sector not come to anything useful.

 

[Semmel]

My impression is that we aren't doing any of that, the recyclers are. Mark said we're getting the damaged graphite part, we aren't doing any of the recycling part. Then we're fixing the graphite and turning it into anode. I think that's why it's more profitable for us, the recyclers have already extracted all the metals and are just left with the graphite. I probably shouldn't have said black mass, I don't think we take that, I think we take just the recycled graphite.

I don't think that's how it works. After removing metals from black mass, what is left is a mix of chemicals and impurities.. among which is the original anode. Who knows how diluted that is? What other chemicals are present.. it might be that the graphite is completely dissolved in a solution and can't be recovered at all.

The recovery process of the metals, when happening before the graphite, determines whether TSLA can extract the graphite using its methods. However, I can't give you any specifics because I do not understand the process well enough

 

[anbuck]

I think if recycling could be done a prices comparable to new synthetic, Talga would have been yelling that from the rooftops. The fact that they haven't mentioned cost likely means it is more expensive. However, maybe they're working on reducing cost now.