Renesas

[Iseki]

What’s that supposed to prove?

It means that you shouldn't get excited and then disappointed when all the Renesas links, when you follow them to their end-point, do not reveal a link to Akida.

They can't link to Akida because they haven't put the Akida IP into anything yet.

The Renesas CTO (I think was his title) has mentioned that they are putting Akida IP in a chip with ARM M33. So this would be a watershed event for us. It can't happen quickly enough. But when?

You'd have thought BRN would be over this. They could tell us that they were working on this project with Renesas and that it was only a month away from completion. But no.

add here a giffy crickets thing if you like.

 

[Deleted member 118]

It means that you shouldn't get excited and then disappointed when all the Renesas links, when you follow them to their end-point, do not reveal a link to Akida.

They can't link to Akida because they haven't put the Akida IP into anything yet.

The Renesas CTO (I think was his title) has mentioned that they are putting Akida IP in a chip with ARM M33. So this would be a watershed event for us. It can't happen quickly enough. But when?

You'd have thought BRN would be over this. They could tell us that they were working on this project with Renesas and that it was only a month away from completion. But no.

add here a giffy crickets thing if you like.

Hey mate, just keep faith as the light at the end of the tunnel is getting very close

 

[Stable Genius]

It means that you shouldn't get excited and then disappointed when all the Renesas links, when you follow them to their end-point, do not reveal a link to Akida.

They can't link to Akida because they haven't put the Akida IP into anything yet.

The Renesas CTO (I think was his title) has mentioned that they are putting Akida IP in a chip with ARM M33. So this would be a watershed event for us. It can't happen quickly enough. But when?

You'd have thought BRN would be over this. They could tell us that they were working on this project with Renesas and that it was only a month away from completion. But no.

add here a giffy crickets thing if you like.

Hi Iseki,

Once Renesas buy the licence from Brainchip they can do what they want with in (iaw contractual agreement). In their own time.

For example: When i buy a house I don’t contact the previous owner to tell them when I’m painting it or adding on a room.

They also have their own engineers.

Ultimately it’s up to Renesas to release their product when it suits them. We’ll get the royalties regardless of when it happens.

Good on you for asking Tony the question but you were right, he might not know but if he did he definitely legally couldn’t tell you anyway.

During an interview the other day Rob said a big issue is trust. Keeping company secrets builds that trust and will make Brainchip successful!

Cheers

 

[Iseki]

Hi Iseki,

Once Renesas buy the licence from Brainchip they can do what they want with in (iaw contractual agreement). In their own time.

For example: When i buy a house I don’t contact the previous owner to tell them when I’m painting it or adding on a room.

They also have their own engineers.

Ultimately it’s up to Renesas to release their product when it suits them. We’ll get the royalties regardless of when it happens.

Good on you for asking Tony the question but you were right, he might not know but if he did he definitely legally couldn’t tell you anyway.

During an interview the other day Rob said a big issue is trust. Keeping company secrets builds that trust and will make Brainchip successful!

Cheers

All good SG,

I do have a lot of trust in BrainChip. At the same time, if no one makes a chip with Akida IP then we can't make revenue.

I especially like the way the new CEO made the agreement with MegaChips limited to 4 years, so if they don't use their license, they lose their $.

Trust is a funny thing. I trust Brainchip to not trust Renesas. Renesas have said they have a plan to "start the ball rolling" on a chip that uses Akida IP for all. If that's true then can someone please tell me the ball park time to availability? Otherwise it's not a plan at all.

I only hope that if in 6 months time neither Renesas nor MegaChips have announced a planned release date for a chip that's available to all the engineers out there, then we have a plan C.

Good luck to all holders

 

[Fact Finder]

All good SG,

I do have a lot of trust in BrainChip. At the same time, if no one makes a chip with Akida IP then we can't make revenue.

I especially like the way the new CEO made the agreement with MegaChips limited to 4 years, so if they don't use their license, they lose their $.

Trust is a funny thing. I trust Brainchip to not trust Renesas. Renesas have said they have a plan to "start the ball rolling" on a chip that uses Akida IP for all. If that's true then can someone please tell me the ball park time to availability? Otherwise it's not a plan at all.

I only hope that if in 6 months time neither Renesas nor MegaChips have announced a planned release date for a chip that's available to all the engineers out there, then we have a plan C.

Good luck to all holders

So that I understand your point you are saying because you an anonymous poster on a social media site has not been given details of the Renesas strategic plan for developing and marketing a product containing AKIDA IP that plan does not exist?

FF

AKIDA BALLISTA

 

[Iseki]

So that I understand your point you are saying because you an anonymous poster on a social media site has not been given details of the Renesas strategic plan for developing and marketing a product containing AKIDA IP that plan does not exist?

FF

AKIDA BALLISTA

I'm saying that if no one puts Akida IP in a chip we will have no income.

In addition I can not see any urgency from Renesas to do so.

 

[Fact Finder]

Your first point makes sense and that is why Brainchip has a commercialisation strategy which has resulted in customers and partners and is ongoing.

The second point is less transparent as I personally have no skill or training in creating a commercial Micro Control Unit of any description let alone one containing first of its kind spiking neuromorphic IP creating a never before seen on the market intelligent MCU so do not have a clue as to how long this would take.

Can you help me with what the normal time from licence to commercial availability is in these circumstances so I can understand why you say it is not being done with any urgency by Renesas?

FF

AKIDA BALLISTA

 

[Iseki]

Your first point makes sense and that is why Brainchip has a commercialisation strategy which has resulted in customers and partners and is ongoing.

The second point is less transparent as I personally have no skill or training in creating a commercial Micro Control Unit of any description let alone one containing first of its kind spiking neuromorphic IP creating a never before seen on the market intelligent MCU so do not have a clue as to how long this would take.

Can you help me with what the normal time from licence to commercial availability is in these circumstances so I can understand why you say it is not being done with any urgency by Renesas?

FF

AKIDA BALLISTA

FF, from one anonymous poster to another, I'm not going to spar with you as I have far too much regard for the work you do here.

If Renesas has licensed Akida IP, they will know what time it takes to chip availability, if they are interested in making one.

Let's move on.

Here is my Plan C for Brainchip which will help ensure we become a defacto standard.

License SiFive with the Akida IP but assist them in asking for no royalty from the first 10million chips.

Now that would get the ball rolling.

 

[Fact Finder]

FF, from one anonymous poster to another, I'm not going to spar with you as I have far too much regard for the work you do here.

If Renesas has licensed Akida IP, they will know what time it takes to chip availability, if they are interested in making one.

Let's move on.

Here is my Plan C for Brainchip which will help ensure we become a defacto standard.

License SiFive with the Akida IP but assist them in asking for no royalty from the first 10million chips.

Now that would get the ball rolling.

It is not a question of sparring you have spent a number of days across here and the main thread posting unsubstantiated and illogical comments regarding the Renesas IP agreement all of which have been negative and when confronted changed to a new position which is still negative.

So I have gone beyond sparring I am calling out your motives.

Brainchip has announced that Renesas timeline was for the release of the product containing AKIDA second half of 2022. It is still first half 2022.

If, and its a big if, comments like you have been making have a place that place would be October, November not in June which is still the first half of 2022.

Yesterday another poster specifically referred you to the two interviews with Peter van der Made as the acting CEO where he stated the time line quite clearly.

Another poster even went to the trouble to tell you exactly what the company had said regarding the time line yet you have come from that thread to the Renesas thread as if this information had never been conveyed to you to write off Renesas ever bringing a product to market before the stated timeline has elapsed.

I could be charitable, which I am mostly, but no one is as stupid as you would need to be to not understand that criticising someone for not doing something when it was made clear it would not be done at the time of your criticism, AND claiming this failure proves they are never going to do it cannot be justified by stupidity or panic however it can be seen as some form of deliberate negativity designed to serve a personal agenda.

I do not need your respect, however every shareholder in this company needs their investment to be respected, and not trashed by someone with other than their best interests at heart.

Your continued negativity around the Renesas product release in the face of the provision by multiple posters of overwhelming evidence to the contrary disentitles you to respect, consideration or further comment.


My opinion only DYOR
FF

AKIDA BALLISTA

 

[Slade]

It is not a question of sparring you have spent a number of days across here and the main thread posting unsubstantiated and illogical comments regarding the Renesas IP agreement all of which have been negative and when confronted changed to a new position which is still negative.

So I have gone beyond sparring I am calling out your motives.

Brainchip has announced that Renesas timeline was for the release of the product containing AKIDA second half of 2022. It is still first half 2022.

If, and its a big if, comments like you have been making have a place that place would be October, November not in June which is still the first half of 2022.

Yesterday another poster specifically referred you to the two interviews with Peter van der Made as the acting CEO where he stated the time line quite clearly.

Another poster even went to the trouble to tell you exactly what the company had said regarding the time line yet you have come from that thread to the Renesas thread as if this information had never been conveyed to you to write off Renesas ever bringing a product to market before the stated timeline has elapsed.

I could be charitable, which I am mostly, but no one is as stupid as you would need to be to not understand that criticising someone for not doing something when it was made clear it would not be done at the time of your criticism, AND claiming this failure proves they are never going to do it cannot be justified by stupidity or panic however it can be seen as some form of deliberate negativity designed to serve a personal agenda.

I do not need your respect, however every shareholder in this company needs their investment to be respected, and not trashed by someone with other than their best interests at heart.

Your continued negativity around the Renesas product release in the face of the provision by multiple posters of overwhelming evidence to the contrary disentitles you to respect, consideration or further comment.


My opinion only DYOR
FF

AKIDA BALLISTA

I put him on ignore the other day. His motives seem very clear to me.

 

[Iseki]

FF

Hope you are right and my gut instincts are way off.

You are the music
While the music lasts.

 

[Iseki]

I put him on ignore the other day. His motives seem very clear to me.

Happy now?

 

[Deleted member 118]

Got it. Click on the graphics.

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/application/automotive/driver-occupant-monitoring-system

View attachment 10146

Was released in 2020

 

[Rise from the ashes]

Forget Renesas, I got it from horses mouth.

View attachment 10009

LOL. I'm practically speechless.

 

[Rise from the ashes]

 

[Fullmoonfever]

@Iseki @Fact Finder

Was just reading through the discussion and having a dive into Renesas products.

Posting the below to see your thoughts and whether my logic holds any water.

We know that Chittipeddi said.

“At the very low end, we have added an ARM M33 MCU and spiking neural network with BrainChip core licensed for selected applications – we have licensed what we need to license from BrainChip including the software to get the ball rolling.”

I found this Feb 22 article from Semi Engineering that I've snipped a section from that may have some relevance.

We know they use DRP-AI but he also said they have Akida core plus software...IP?

Now the V2L is "entry level" plus specifically says can be used for inferencing where no mention of that function with the V2M. Not to say that can't but find the distinction interesting.

Application targets fin nicely in Akida capabilities without a stretch.

When we look at the block diagrams between the two products can see a specific difference with the V2L having the M33. Why? We know that is a target for Akida so maybe?

Also been a range of update packages released from Jan this year to June relating to the M33, OS, DRP-AI on the V2L

So my question is whether Reneseas has slipped Akida functions into this board / DRP-AI or whether what I'm thinking is off track?

Personally think we may be in V2L.

Product Overview

RZ/V2L CM33 Multi-OS Package is the software package consisting of RZ/V2L Cortex-M33 Flexible Software Package (FSP) as software package for Renesas MCU with Arm® Cortex-M Core and OpenAMP as standardization API of framework for interprocessor communication for developing multi OS solution.

Functions

• Small memory footprint HAL driver.
• Configurator / Code generator that can be operated intuitively.
• Communication between CA55 and CM33 by OpenAMP.

Target Reference Boards

• RZ/V2L Evaluation Board Kit

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/software-tool/rzv2l-group-multi-os-package#overview

Image Processing For Vision AI

Introducing the Simple ISP (Image Signal Processor) — its features, and the software and image quality adjustment procedures.

semiengineering.com

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/microcontrollers-microprocessors/rz-cortex-a-mpus/rzv2m-dual-cortex-a53-lpddr4x32bit-ai-accelerator-isp-4k-video-codec-4k-camera-input-fhd-display-output

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/microcontrollers-microprocessors/rz-mpus/rzv2l-general-purpose-microprocessor-equipped-renesas-original-ai-dedicated-accelerator-drp-ai-12ghz-dual?doc_secondary=visible#overview

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/software-tool/rzv2l-group-multi-os-package#overview

 

[Fullmoonfever]

@Iseki @Fact Finder

Was just reading through the discussion and having a dive into Renesas products.

Posting the below to see your thoughts and whether my logic holds any water.

We know that Chittipeddi said.

“At the very low end, we have added an ARM M33 MCU and spiking neural network with BrainChip core licensed for selected applications – we have licensed what we need to license from BrainChip including the software to get the ball rolling.”

I found this Feb 22 article from Semi Engineering that I've snipped a section from that may have some relevance.

We know they use DRP-AI but he also said they have Akida core plus software...IP?


View attachment 10174


Now the V2L is "entry level" plus specifically says can be used for inferencing where no mention of that function with the V2M. Not to say that can't but find the distinction interesting.

Application targets fin nicely in Akida capabilities without a stretch.

View attachment 10178



When we look at the block diagrams between the two products can see a specific difference with the V2L having the M33. Why? We know that is a target for Akida so maybe?

View attachment 10179

View attachment 10180

Also been a range of update packages released from Jan this year to June relating to the M33, OS, DRP-AI on the V2L

So my question is whether Reneseas has slipped Akida functions into this board / DRP-AI or whether what I'm thinking is off track?

Personally think we may be in V2L.

Product Overview

RZ/V2L CM33 Multi-OS Package is the software package consisting of RZ/V2L Cortex-M33 Flexible Software Package (FSP) as software package for Renesas MCU with Arm® Cortex-M Core and OpenAMP as standardization API of framework for interprocessor communication for developing multi OS solution.

Functions

• Small memory footprint HAL driver.
• Configurator / Code generator that can be operated intuitively.
• Communication between CA55 and CM33 by OpenAMP.

Target Reference Boards

• RZ/V2L Evaluation Board Kit

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/software-tool/rzv2l-group-multi-os-package#overview

Image Processing For Vision AI

Introducing the Simple ISP (Image Signal Processor) — its features, and the software and image quality adjustment procedures.

semiengineering.com

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/microcontrollers-microprocessors/rz-cortex-a-mpus/rzv2m-dual-cortex-a53-lpddr4x32bit-ai-accelerator-isp-4k-video-codec-4k-camera-input-fhd-display-output

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/microcontrollers-microprocessors/rz-mpus/rzv2l-general-purpose-microprocessor-equipped-renesas-original-ai-dedicated-accelerator-drp-ai-12ghz-dual?doc_secondary=visible#overview

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/software-tool/rzv2l-group-multi-os-package#overview

The other thing I forgot to add was a Renesas RZ ecosystem partner solution brief from Irida Labs...Mar 22.

They use the V2L and snip below with full doc attached.

Endpoint no cloud?

Could mean nothing or could mean something.

 

[Iseki]

The other thing I forgot to add was a Renesas RZ ecosystem partner solution brief from Irida Labs...Mar 22.

They use the V2L and snip below with full doc attached.

Endpoint no cloud?

Could mean nothing or could mean something.

View attachment 10217

Unfortunately I don't think it is.

From the RZ/V2M Documentation the AI accelerator is an accelerator to process floating point numbers ( to whatever accuracy you need). These numbers are used in all the algorithms in the neural networks.
Akida instead requires much less calculations, uses a different type of (spiking, neuromorphic) neural network, and so is much faster and uses much less power.

I am confident that when Renesas makes a chip that incorporates Akida IP and is available to manufacturers to buy, they and Brainchip will let us know.

I am equally confident that this should happen in the next 4 months.

*taken from RZ/V2M documentation:
" AI-MAC (hardware for high-speed processing of 16-bit floating-point (FP16) matrix operations) [Configuration] ● MAC (multiply-accumulate calculator): Matrix multiply-accumulate operations − Local memory (SRAM for this unit): Holds matrix data, and the weight and bias values of the learning results. ● DMAC: Transfers matrix data, and weight and bias values from LPDDR4 to the local memory. Transfers the result of the multiply-and-accumulate operation output by MAC to LPDDR4

 

[Fullmoonfever]

Unfortunately I don't think it is.

From the RZ/V2M Documentation the AI accelerator is an accelerator to process floating point numbers ( to whatever accuracy you need). These numbers are used in all the algorithms in the neural networks.
Akida instead requires much less calculations, uses a different type of (spiking, neuromorphic) neural network, and so is much faster and uses much less power.

I am confident that when Renesas makes a chip that incorporates Akida IP and is available to manufacturers to buy, they and Brainchip will let us know.

I am equally confident that this should happen in the next 4 months.

*taken from RZ/V2M documentation:
" AI-MAC (hardware for high-speed processing of 16-bit floating-point (FP16) matrix operations) [Configuration] ● MAC (multiply-accumulate calculator): Matrix multiply-accumulate operations − Local memory (SRAM for this unit): Holds matrix data, and the weight and bias values of the learning results. ● DMAC: Transfers matrix data, and weight and bias values from LPDDR4 to the local memory. Transfers the result of the multiply-and-accumulate operation output by MAC to LPDDR4

Hey U could be right and nothing definitive but not looking at the V2M but the V2L.

Diff board.

The V2L has the M33 but the V2M doesn't.

Like I said, could be totally off base but asking the question for those more learned re the V2L possibilities.

 

[Fullmoonfever]

Unfortunately I don't think it is.

From the RZ/V2M Documentation the AI accelerator is an accelerator to process floating point numbers ( to whatever accuracy you need). These numbers are used in all the algorithms in the neural networks.
Akida instead requires much less calculations, uses a different type of (spiking, neuromorphic) neural network, and so is much faster and uses much less power.

I am confident that when Renesas makes a chip that incorporates Akida IP and is available to manufacturers to buy, they and Brainchip will let us know.

I am equally confident that this should happen in the next 4 months.

*taken from RZ/V2M documentation:
" AI-MAC (hardware for high-speed processing of 16-bit floating-point (FP16) matrix operations) [Configuration] ● MAC (multiply-accumulate calculator): Matrix multiply-accumulate operations − Local memory (SRAM for this unit): Holds matrix data, and the weight and bias values of the learning results. ● DMAC: Transfers matrix data, and weight and bias values from LPDDR4 to the local memory. Transfers the result of the multiply-and-accumulate operation output by MAC to LPDDR4

Also I doubt there is an actual obligation for Renesas to advise us or anyone when or if they utilise Akida.

That's prob more the reality to accept.