AVZ Discussion 2022

[Dazmac66]

Maybe this has something to do with it

View attachment 80397

Just for clarity:
When the ICSID (International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes) publishes a statement like "The Respondent files a request to address the objections to jurisdiction as a preliminary question," it means that the Respondent (the party being sued in an arbitration case) is requesting that the tribunal first determine whether it has the authority (jurisdiction) to hear the case before proceeding with any other matters.

In other words, the Respondent is raising an issue about the tribunal's jurisdiction—whether the case is one that the tribunal is legally allowed to adjudicate—before moving on to the substantive issues in the dispute (such as the merits of the claim or the details of the investment dispute). This is often called a "preliminary objection" or "preliminary jurisdictional question".

By requesting this, the Respondent wants to ensure that the arbitration process should not even continue if the tribunal finds that it does not have the proper jurisdiction to hear the case in the first place. If the tribunal finds that it does not have jurisdiction, the case will be dismissed without addressing the underlying issues.

So, the statement essentially signals that there is a challenge to the tribunal’s authority to proceed, and that the Respondent wants that issue resolved early in the process.

 

[j.l]

Just for clarity:
When the ICSID (International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes) publishes a statement like "The Respondent files a request to address the objections to jurisdiction as a preliminary question," it means that the Respondent (the party being sued in an arbitration case) is requesting that the tribunal first determine whether it has the authority (jurisdiction) to hear the case before proceeding with any other matters.

In other words, the Respondent is raising an issue about the tribunal's jurisdiction—whether the case is one that the tribunal is legally allowed to adjudicate—before moving on to the substantive issues in the dispute (such as the merits of the claim or the details of the investment dispute). This is often called a "preliminary objection" or "preliminary jurisdictional question".

By requesting this, the Respondent wants to ensure that the arbitration process should not even continue if the tribunal finds that it does not have the proper jurisdiction to hear the case in the first place. If the tribunal finds that it does not have jurisdiction, the case will be dismissed without addressing the underlying issues.

So, the statement essentially signals that there is a challenge to the tribunal’s authority to proceed, and that the Respondent wants that issue resolved early in the process.

This strikes me as a pretty standard first step in these disputes. Didn't the ICC case go through the same?
I'm pretty sure any respondent would take this step. Give it a go, eh. If nothing else, buys more time.
Presumably just one of many more tactics to come...

 

[Strongman]

Need for immediate arrest of Graeme Johnston was overturned on appeal pending further appeal to DRC Supreme Court which will be heard after Dathomir ICC cases establish Cong is a moron imo
View attachment 80421

Definitely confused by this. The $50 million fine and arrest warrant cancelled on appeal but still being fined $25 mil and "Declares however admisssible and partially founded the appeals of the accused Graeme Johnston and Dathcom".....what does that actually mean ?

 

[Strongman]

Definitely confused by this. The $50 million fine and arrest warrant cancelled on appeal but still being fined $25 mil and "Declares however admisssible and partially founded the appeals of the accused Graeme Johnston and Dathcom".....what does that actually mean ?

Cant immagine how anybody can be part guilty of forgery or is this tied in with the pending ICC case against Cong re the 15 %

 

[Dijon101]

Definitely confused by this. The $50 million fine and arrest warrant cancelled on appeal but still being fined $25 mil and "Declares however admisssible and partially founded the appeals of the accused Graeme Johnston and Dathcom".....what does that actually mean ?

It means the DRC lawyers and police still want their snacks

 

[j.l]

I know it's pointless, but I can't help but wonder what prompted DeBoss to issue his X post rallying the troops a few days ago...

 

[Mute22]

I know it's pointless, but I can't help but wonder what prompted DeBoss to issue his X post rallying the troops a few days ago...

 

[Goat]

This strikes me as a pretty standard first step in these disputes. Didn't the ICC case go through the same?
I'm pretty sure any respondent would take this step. Give it a go, eh. If nothing else, buys more time.
Presumably just one of many more tactics to come...

Yep, same over again. Buy more time.. The bloody contract that the DRC created stipulates that the ICC/ICSID is where the battles will be held. Bunch of flaming clowns eh.

 

[Spikerama]

I tell you what. If this whole thing turns out to be delayed only because GJ case and they're trying to keep him out of gaol, there's going to be some pretty serious blood letting.

 

[Spikerama]

I've updated the Count Down app so that the scrolling story now works on mobile. If anyone notices any kinks or typos let me know ta.

AVZ vs DRC @ ICSID - Final Countdown

Countdown to the ICSID tribunal of AVZ vs DRC (Congolese).

avz-icsid-final-countdown.netlify.app

 

[Remark]

I've updated the Count Down app so that the scrolling story now works on mobile.

AVZ vs DRC @ ICSID - Final Countdown

Countdown to the ICSID tribunal of AVZ vs DRC (Congolese).

avz-icsid-final-countdown.netlify.app

Seems to work nicely

 

[Carlos Danger]

I tell you what. If this whole thing turns out to be delayed only because GJ case and they're trying to keep him out of gaol, there's going to be some pretty serious blood letting.

The question of do we own 75% or 60% and does Dathomir also need to be appropriately compensated by KoBold is a far bigger issue than GJ sentence imo

 

[Carlos Danger]

I know it's pointless, but I can't help but wonder what prompted DeBoss to issue his X post rallying the troops a few days ago...

Likes are a hell of a drug imo

 

[Carlos Danger]

Definitely confused by this. The $50 million fine and arrest warrant cancelled on appeal but still being fined $25 mil and "Declares however admisssible and partially founded the appeals of the accused Graeme Johnston and Dathcom".....what does that actually mean ?

Cant immagine how anybody can be part guilty of forgery or is this tied in with the pending ICC case against Cong re the 15 %

The case had nothing to do with the merits of the SPA’s completion. It was a criminal case dealing with whether the share certificates showing AVZ at 75% were created legally. Original judge repeatedly says the merits need to go through arbitration.

The 25m fine is also pending the DRC Supreme Court hearing this case after ICC arbitration so will likely be removed. The judges view is that AVZ should have initiated arbitration. AVZ’s view is the SPA’s don’t say that and they had no choice under Congolese law but to create the share certificates.

Long story short it all depends on what the ICC says whether any of this matters

 

[marksmann007]

The case had nothing to do with the merits of the SPA’s completion. It was a criminal case dealing with whether the share certificates showing AVZ at 75% were created legally. Original judge repeatedly says the merits need to go through arbitration.

The 25m fine is also pending the DRC Supreme Court hearing this case after ICC arbitration so will likely be removed. The judges view is that AVZ should have initiated arbitration. AVZ’s view is the SPA’s don’t say that and they had no choice under Congolese law but to create the share certificates.

Long story short it all depends on what the ICC says whether any of this matters

Thanks for giving us an understanding of all this in layman’s terms Carlos.
It really is appreciated by many of us here I’m certain!

 

[Mute22]

100% my own bullshit theory, but here’s what might be going down:

1. Months ago, Kobold made a low-ball offer for the South, implying to AVZ that they didn’t have the funds to see the ICSID case through—essentially asking, why take the risk? It was a classic test-the-waters move, but AVZ swiftly rejected as they had other deals in the background.
2. Now, with CATH in the picture, Kobold is back at the table, strategically planting media narratives about a deal being in progress. The goal, to pressure the Trump administration, the DRC government, and AVZ shareholders into playing ball and putting them in the picture for a longer term deal.
3. The supposed deal is for the South only, requiring AVZ to forfeit any stake in the North. To Nigel, this was completely unacceptable, even if the price for the South was good, walking away with zero compensation for the North wasn’t an option.
4. At this point, it’s a game of chicken. The DRC government must decide: do they risk the ICSID case ruling in AVZ’s favor for the North exposing themselves, or do they open themselves up to potential litigation and backlash to powerful individuals from Zijin—justified or not?
5. For now, they’re taking a back seat, following protocol, and letting ICSID decide. If AVZ wins and regains its rights, the play is clear, strike a deal with Kobold for the South, while Zijin is forced to compensate AVZ for the North.
6. Nigel has decided with all the fuckery from all sides, and no genuine offer of actual value on the table, the best course forward is to proceed with the ICSID to put an irrefutable value and compensation claim in place which can anchor all negotiation.

So to cut a long story short, we will still be posting here come December.

 

[j.l]

So to cut a long story short, we will still be posting here come December.

Not sure how many TSE Decembers, Easters, champagnes, and steak & red wines I have left in me...

 

[TheGermanOne]

I know it's pointless, but I can't help but wonder what prompted DeBoss to issue his X post rallying the troops a few days ago...

It's pretty simple: I and maybe other user asked him for his opinion. Nothing more...

 

[Strongman]

The case had nothing to do with the merits of the SPA’s completion. It was a criminal case dealing with whether the share certificates showing AVZ at 75% were created legally. Original judge repeatedly says the merits need to go through arbitration.

The 25m fine is also pending the DRC Supreme Court hearing this case after ICC arbitration so will likely be removed. The judges view is that AVZ should have initiated arbitration. AVZ’s view is the SPA’s don’t say that and they had no choice under Congolese law but to create the share certificates.

Long story short it all depends on what the ICC says whether any of this matters

Thanks mate good to get this set out in laymans terms
As @ Marksmann said there are many people here who appreciate your insight

Cheers

 

[BRICK]

Not sure how many TSE Decembers, Easters, champagnes, and steak & red wines I have left in me...

I have another 6 years then ill start getting impatient