Talga Updates and Discussion thread

[Semmel]

Let me take this opportunity to place this update thread here. It wasnt really necessary in the past as we had specific threads for each event. But.. they get forgotten fast and rarely commented upon. So lets try this instead. Its for important events and discussion of said events.

Previous attempts to establish this thread as Updates only, without discussion failed about 50% of the time and without the power to police this thread effectively (in form of moving posts from here to the Discussion thread), its time to conclude that this idea doesnt work in our community. No matter how much positive feedback there was last time I posed the question. The "Updates only" part breaks essentially every time something happens where people want to engage.

 

[Semmel]

Talga joins innovative Polestar 0 project

 

[Semmel]

(will post link as soon as Talgas web page lists the link)

 

[Semmel]

(placeholder for direct talga link)

 

[cosors]

Here is an update on the latest happenings from the Swedish Talga page. Interesting words...

"Political top name into Talga​

- former minister and union leader Eva Nordmark (S) joins Talga's board

Image: Eva Nordmark joins Talga's board.


December 7, 2023:
Talga AB recently announced that it has recruited Eva Nordmark to the company's board. Eva has a background that includes labor market minister and as long-term chairman of the central trade union organization TCO.

"It feels like great fun and like a great victory to be able to welcome Eva Nordmark to Talga, says Europe manager Martin Phillips, and continues: "When we now scale up the business and take seriously the challenge of electrified transport within Europe, we have here a person who shares our values of sustainability and innovation focus - and who has extensive experience in everything from labor market issues to taking a place on the European stage. Another team player for the team!”

Eva has a high reputation in both politics and business and has many key items on her CV. Her most recent political assignments were as labor market minister as well as gender equality minister in the Löfven and Andersson governments. Before that, she was chairman of TCO for eight years and held several trade union positions after she sat in the Riksdag between 1995 and 1998. She also has, among other things, was chairman of Luleå University of Technology between 2013 and 2019 - with Talgas' Per-Erik Lindvall as vice chairman.

Per-Erik comments:

"Eva Nordmark is a person who I myself have had the pleasure of working with before and who will contribute strongly to Talga's continued development. With his broad and deep knowledge in, not least, skills supply issues. It feels both fun and safe to be able to welcome her along on the journey today."

Today, Eva works as a senior advisor in her own company and at Rud Pedersen Public Affairs Sweden, as well as chairperson of the GIH School of Gymnastics and Sports, a position appointed by the current government. Eva originally comes from Norrbotten, where she has strong roots and a network of contacts. Today she lives in Nacka outside Stockholm with her husband. Regarding her own expectations towards Talga, Eva Nordmark says:

"Talga has grown in a short time to become one of Europe's perhaps most important companies for the green transition. Building an integrated, European value chain for battery anodes is a mission as important as it is exciting, and I look forward to contributing my experiences on that journey.”

Eva will be part of the board's work with immediate effect."
https://www.talgagroup.com/sv/politiskt-toppnamn-in-i-talga/

So get to work with fun. There's a lot to do...

 

[cosors]

"Talga Advanced Materials GmbH
Plant operator/chemist/food technologist (m/f/d) (machine and plant operator (without specifying focus))
...
Batch preparation (weighing, measuring)
..."

https://www.stepstone.de/stellenangebote--Anlagenfahrer-Chemikant-Lebensmitteltechnologe-m-w-d-Maschinen-und-Anlagenfuehrer-in-o-Angabe-des-Schwerpunkts-

Rudolstadt-Talga-Advanced-Materials-GmbH--10366589-inline.html?lang=de&rewrite=1&rltr=15_15_25_seorl_s_0_0_0_0_1_0

 

[brewm0re]

Here is an update on the latest happenings from the Swedish Talga page. Interesting words...

"Political top name into Talga​

- former minister and union leader Eva Nordmark (S) joins Talga's board

View attachment 51982
Image: Eva Nordmark joins Talga's board.


December 7, 2023:
Talga AB recently announced that it has recruited Eva Nordmark to the company's board. Eva has a background that includes labor market minister and as long-term chairman of the central trade union organization TCO.

Eva has a high reputation in both politics and business and has many key items on her CV. Her most recent political assignments were as labor market minister as well as gender equality minister in the Löfven and Andersson governments. Before that, she was chairman of TCO for eight years and held several trade union positions after she sat in the Riksdag between 1995 and 1998. She also has, among other things, was chairman of Luleå University of Technology between 2013 and 2019 - with Talgas' Per-Erik Lindvall as vice chairman.

Per-Erik comments:

Today, Eva works as a senior advisor in her own company and at Rud Pedersen Public Affairs Sweden, as well as chairperson of the GIH School of Gymnastics and Sports, a position appointed by the current government. Eva originally comes from Norrbotten, where she has strong roots and a network of contacts. Today she lives in Nacka outside Stockholm with her husband. Regarding her own expectations towards Talga, Eva Nordmark says:

Eva will be part of the board's work with immediate effect."
https://www.talgagroup.com/sv/politiskt-toppnamn-in-i-talga/

So get to work with fun. There's a lot to do...

Hmm Given her history/experience, & if you’d think if she had half a brain, Eva wouldn’t be joining a board if TLG doesn’t have a resounding YES of jumping through the last hoop to freedom in finally starting….

The Riksdag is the highest decision-making assembly in Sweden. The Riksdag's tasks include making laws and determining the central government budget.

 

[cosors]

"Talga Advanced Materials GmbH
Plant operator/chemist/food technologist (m/f/d) (machine and plant operator (without specifying focus))
...
Batch preparation (weighing, measuring)
..."

https://www.stepstone.de/stellenangebote--Anlagenfahrer-Chemikant-Lebensmitteltechnologe-m-w-d-Maschinen-und-Anlagenfuehrer-in-o-Angabe-des-Schwerpunkts-

Rudolstadt-Talga-Advanced-Materials-GmbH--10366589-inline.html?lang=de&rewrite=1&rltr=15_15_25_seorl_s_0_0_0_0_1_0

Just now it occurs to me that this Job could have something to do with packaging items. We had/have a cooperation with the big BillerudKorsnäs, which in turn has a joint venture Paboco with the really big beverage packaging manufacturer Alpla. It's about graphene paper packaging.

Or/and with this 2D-TECH: https://thestockexchange.com.au/threads/media.19849/post-44769

Or with the Cyrene ReSolute project (and agrochemical production...non-toxic, high-performance solvent):

TLG Discussion 2022

Don't get me wrong. Talga is so small and the cables are already laid. Talga is safe. "The new green industries will receive their electricity from the new receiving station being built on Hertsöfältet, a few kilometres from Svartön. Daniel Agrér, Head of Electricity Networks at Luleå Energi...

thestockexchange.com.au

ReSolute | Circular Bio-based Europe Joint Undertaking (CBE JU)

www.cbe.europa.eu

I haven't dealt with this topic for a longer time as I have just discovered when searching this forum.
But maybe there is something to it with job aplication. I have lost the thread a bit, I admit.

 

[Semmel]

As a reminder, this thread is for UPDATES only. Any discussion about the updates should go to the discussion thread. This thread is an attempt to have a clear history of significant events of Talga, without miles of chatter in between. I appreciate the discussions very much, and I know keeping this is going to need some discipline, but it will help is greatly in the years to come if we can pull it off.

 

[Micreg]

Quarterly Activities Review released 31 Jan 2024

https://talgagroup.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/app/uploads/2024/01/31182618/20240131_Talga_Dec2023Qtly_ASX.pdf

 

[cosors]

Sorry! I put this in the wrong thread. I'll correct that and put it here..

While other costs remained largely unchanged with one exception, production and costs for samples rose by 14% in the last quarter. Do I see that correctly? If so, could it mean that more samples left the EVA than usual?

 

[cosors]

That should be largely the case (or production costs have increased for other reasons). However, "receipts by customers" are declining at the same time. Unfortunately, Talga has never been able to fulfil its announcements that fair, market-standard revenues would be generated through the test material provided (or I misunderstood their initial announcement due to the language barrier). I asked questions about this twice before the last webinars and they were ignored.

 

[cosors]

Sorry! I put this in the wrong thread. I'll correct that and put it here..

View attachment 55638
View attachment 55639

While other costs remained largely unchanged with one exception, production and costs for samples rose by 14% in the last quarter. Do I see that correctly? If so, could it mean that more samples left the EVA than usual?

Semmel:
It looks to me that the item you highlightes almost doubled. From $1.739M to $3.056M. Both together is the $4.795M.

 

[cosors]

teilenswert:
That should be largely the case (or production costs have increased for other reasons). However, "receipts by customers" are declining at the same time. Unfortunately, Talga has never been able to fulfil its announcements that fair, market-standard revenues would be generated through the test material provided (or I misunderstood their initial announcement due to the language barrier). I asked questions about this twice before the last webinars and they were ignored.

I was also surprised from the beginning. I would never have thought that Talga would/could be stuck with these costs for the nearly series production of samples. Presumably they get the costs covered in the binding purchase agreement. But it is impossible for us to guess what was negotiated. Perhaps the costs are collected and then decided at the end. No idea. I know people from purchasing in the automotive industry but not in this area.
But maybe they really do calculate differently here. Perhaps a higher price is being charged for the prototypes in pre-series from the binding contract onwards in order to cover the costs of development.
So if the samples are convincing for the customer Talga gets a refund from the moment the order is placed.
The assumption is obvious, because if I have understood it correctly, the qualification tests are already well advanced or perhaps already completed, who knows.
All modules of a future vehicle have to reach quality gates before they are considered ready for series production. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the (?) PAPP (production part approval process) for batteries looks like. Whether Talnode-C is already part of a PAPP within that qualification process or whether Talga is still before that and the current qualification programme only serves to qualify for a PAPP. A battery also consists of modules anyway.
Or completely different processes apply here? I wish there was more general information on this so that we could have an idea of what the process looks like until it is ready for series production, apart from being fobbed off with the information - it takes a long time

I have found something that could answer the questions. It is a relatively long text and I will have to study it piece by piece and that will take time, but you can find it here:

Understanding the Certification Process for Lithium-Ion Batteries​

https://thestockexchange.com.au/threads/technology-resource-and-mining.31383/post-408099

 

[cosors]

Talking to myself is that easy LoL. Please excuse the hullabaloo (?) meant tohuwabohu.

 

[teilenswert]

I just copied some numbers from the quarterlies that I could find on Talga's website. As you can see, cost of production from the pilot plant is rising considerably over time, but we never really archieved significant income. I am too far from the subject matter to understand which procedures are standard market practice. Obviously, however, we have not succeeded in passing on the production costs to the customers.

Initially, this was announced differently, or at least I had understood it differently. In February 2022, Talga announced this as follows:
"The large-scale samples are being committed at prices above DFS pricing projections (ASX:TLG 1 July 2021) as part of tailored customer testing programs already underway. Receipts from the sale of large-scale samples under these customer testing programs are not expected to be material at this stage."

For me, this is contradictory. Prices above the DFS assumptions, but equally not significant. It would be interesting to understand how much material is produced, how much actually ends up with customers and how much is needed for our own purposes, and why we could not supply a single customer with the EVA plant and generate income in order to survive the prolonged "drought period" without having to constantly initiate capital increases.

 

[WheresTheMonkey]

View attachment 55644

I just copied some numbers from the quarterlies that I could find on Talga's website. As you can see, cost of production from the pilot plant is rising considerably over time, but we never really archieved significant income. I am too far from the subject matter to understand which procedures are standard market practice. Obviously, however, we have not succeeded in passing on the production costs to the customers.

That "Staff Cost" figure you have of $1,127,000 is actually described in the QR as "Staff Cost-Corporate" which would be the cost of staff in the Perth office plus whoever is in Martin Phillips office in Sweden. The labelling as "Corporate" is very much on purpose in order to distinguish it

It would not include people operating the various plant so they would be included in "Production Cost" so we can therefore conclude that substantial salary/fixed costs (excluding overtime) are embedded in the "Production Cost" figure. So those total costs do not rise or fall depending upon production but they do rise and fall per unit of production. They rise on a total as you put on more staff.

There is no real definition in financial accounting as to what is "Staff Cost- Corporate" as it is a management accounting term (internal) to allow the company to work out its costs per unit of production. "Staff Cost-Corporate" is not part of the "Costs of Production". It's more like an Office Overhead.

By the way "Development Costs" of $1,590,000 likely includes the salaries of those we have in Cambridge and any other laboratory carrying our research. Likewise "Exploration Costs" $2,593,000 would include salaries of all the in the field geologists/people et al and all the assay and drilling works

So Yeah it's very opaque. Don't forget there are 51 staff (plus more now "Hello Eva,Anna,and Per-Inge") we just don't know what the split of staff or gross salaries and on costs between the four different cost centres is departments is

 

[curiousmagpie]

View attachment 55644

I just copied some numbers from the quarterlies that I could find on Talga's website. As you can see, cost of production from the pilot plant is rising considerably over time, but we never really archieved significant income. I am too far from the subject matter to understand which procedures are standard market practice. Obviously, however, we have not succeeded in passing on the production costs to the customers.

Initially, this was announced differently, or at least I had understood it differently. In February 2022, Talga announced this as follows:
"The large-scale samples are being committed at prices above DFS pricing projections (ASX:TLG 1 July 2021) as part of tailored customer testing programs already underway. Receipts from the sale of large-scale samples under these customer testing programs are not expected to be material at this stage."

For me, this is contradictory. Prices above the DFS assumptions, but equally not significant. It would be interesting to understand how much material is produced, how much actually ends up with customers and how much is needed for our own purposes, and why we could not supply a single customer with the EVA plant and generate income in order to survive the prolonged "drought period" without having to constantly initiate capital increases.

thanks for taking the time to put this together

I'd also love to have some solid figures released for the pilot plant.
*What is the capacity? MT in a previous webinar showed an engineering drawing and said the Vittangi plant is just 3x trains of the pilot plant. So pilot plant should be capable of 6500tpa run-rate? Could be potential for US$40-80m revenue there. I find it difficult to believe
*How much material has been delivered to potential customers for qualification to date?
*Why do some customers pay for qualification material and some (seemingly) don't?
*What will pilot plant be used for after Vittangi (eventually!) is up and running


as for pricing of sales - it could have been sample(s) sold above DFS forecast prices but in a very small quantity. So the price achieved is significant but the total value is not material to the company's turnover. $500k pa revenue is meaningless (not material) to a company capped at $400m. It's also debatable if the price achieved selling kilograms of material has any relevance to selling kilotons of the stuff.
Would also be good to know if anyone is still paying above DFS pricing. I doubt it.

Informative chart below from SYR's quarterly presentation. Reading between the lines here they seem to be saying: we will be profitable based on realistic anode prices. Everyone else is using fantasy numbers and haven't adjusted accordingly from the boom times

note they didn't even bother including on the chart EV1's ridiculous assumptions of $18,000-22,000/t AAM

 

[WheresTheMonkey]

thanks for taking the time to put this together

I'd also love to have some solid figures released for the pilot plant.
*What is the capacity? MT in a previous webinar showed an engineering drawing and said the Vittangi plant is just 3x trains of the pilot plant. So pilot plant should be capable of 6500tpa run-rate? Could be potential for US$40-80m revenue there. I find it difficult to believe
*How much material has been delivered to potential customers for qualification to date?
*Why do some customers pay for qualification material and some (seemingly) don't?
*What will pilot plant be used for after Vittangi (eventually!) is up and running


as for pricing of sales - it could have been sample(s) sold above DFS forecast prices but in a very small quantity. So the price achieved is significant but the total value is not material to the company's turnover. $500k pa revenue is meaningless (not material) to a company capped at $400m. It's also debatable if the price achieved selling kilograms of material has any relevance to selling kilotons of the stuff.
Would also be good to know if anyone is still paying above DFS pricing. I doubt it.

Informative chart below from SYR's quarterly presentation. Reading between the lines here they seem to be saying: we will be profitable based on realistic anode prices. Everyone else is using fantasy numbers and haven't adjusted accordingly from the boom times



View attachment 55658


note they didn't even bother including on the chart EV1's ridiculous assumptions of $18,000-22,000/t AAM

@curiousmagpie

Finally Good News
I think you are Wrong...............LOL

They (Syrah) are not comparing Apples to Apples.

Talga owns the coating on "Talnode C"........................there does not appear to be a "Syrah-node C".

Syrah does not appear to have it's own Lab. Talga does have its own Lab and is fully vertically integrated.................. Syrah is not

It looks to me that the Syrah "special sauce" (i.e. coating) is supplied by Third Parties hence the price difference

From Syrah's webpage it appears the coating comes from many Third Parties. Note the word "products" is a plural which to me means every OEM has it's own "special sauce". Note the use of "existing"

Syrah is developing active anode material products from Vidalia for mass market and commercial sales. Syrah's high purity active anode material products are being developed alongside customers, industry participants, laboratories and universities and are designed to drop into existing battery manufacturing facilities and processes. Our anode products are under qualification and in iterative testing programs with leading battery manufacturers and auto OEMs.

Products and Technology

A globally significant vertically integrated natural graphite and battery anode company, supplying battery and industrial markets with high quality, environmentally differentiated and customer qualified products.

www.syrahresources.com.au

 

[curiousmagpie]

I think that might be under-estimating what Syrah have achieved and are planning (disclosure - I do not hold Syrah shares, just follow them for comparison purposes)

Talnode-C is AAM. Syrah will be producing AAM at Vidalia. Syrah don't seem to have given the product a name but that is their Syrah-Node C.

It's the same type of product, the difference is how it performs. We don't have technical specs for either so can't compare.
We don't know that Tal-C will command a premium to Syrah's product, we just have to trust what the company says.
Tal-C might command a premium because of lower CO2 profile, it might command a premium bacause of better performance, but until an offtake is agreed there is no validation that anyone is willing to pay $12-13/kg for Tal-C.
I'm hopeful that Syrah have just been screwed on pricing by signing a bad deal with Tesla and Talga will fare much better, bit until the deal is done it's just hope.


What do you mean when you say Syrah is not fully integrated? I'm not sure what step they're missing that Talga has?

Syrah do own their IP btw, through Syrah Technologies LLC. The part you have bolded is just marketing fluff - a bit like Talga saying they're collaborating with Polestar?
If you look at Syrah patents most of the people listed are current or former Syrah employees, so it was (mostly) developed in-house I think. eg:

US20210057734A1 - Lithium-Ion Battery Anode Material Based on Spherical Natural Graphite Containing Silicates - Google Patents

Materials and novel methods for producing carbon anodes for Li-ion batteries are described. These materials use natural flake graphite that has been processed to improve physical properties but retains residual impurities including silicates and other silicon containing minerals that are...

patents.google.com

What Syrah are less clear about is if Vidalia opex includes any royalties due from an old collaboration with Cadenza Innovation who got them started on the AAM path, but that is too much of a digression I think.