Media

[WheresTheMonkey]

That's a clearly frustrated MT in my opinion. His enthusiasm was toned down a bit I thought due I guess to the appeals delay. Nevertheless his confidence is still high but the delivery was more like ........"this Webinar feels the same as the last one and the one before that"

Interesting that the cash burn rate is going to slow down a bit for the time being at least giving some breathing space to hopefully get the appeals done , a few more announcements out and the SP much higher for the next CR

 

[Semmel]

@ 45:00 You can use Talnode-Si by itself ...

Earlier, Mark said that Talnode-Si has 5 times the energy density of graphite. So a 50/50 battery would have 3 times the capacity [assuming a graphite volume of 2X to hold a charge of 2C, then if half the volume is graphite that is X that would hold charge C, and then having volume X of T-Si would provide an additional 5*C, giving a total of 6*C, which is 2C*3].

Or, if we want to look at 10% T-Si, assume the battery charge is 10C, so we have 9C supplied by the graphite and O.1*5C supplied by T-Si, giving a total of 1.5*10C total. So 10% T-Si provides a 50% capacity increase for the same battery volume.


Capacity multiplication table (1-TSi Fraction + TSi Fraction*5) (proportion of T-Si in graphite):

T-Si Fraction	Capacity Multiplier	Constant charge capacity volume
0	1	1.00
0.1	1.4	0.71
0.2	1.8	0.56
0.3	2.2	0.45
0.4	2.6	0.38
0.5	3	0.33
0.6	3.4	0.29
0.7	3.8	0.26
0.8	4.2	0.24
0.9	4.6	0.22
1	5	0.20

The constant charge capacity volume shows the relative volume of the battery required to hold a chosen charge in relation to the proportion of T-Si, eg, if 0.3 of the battery volume is T-Si, the total volume of the battery would only need to be 0.45 of a full graphite battery with the same charge capacity. This would save over half the battery weight (a saving of over 200kg), providing additional range.

As mentioned elsewhere, it would be possible to trade off some weight saving by increasing the battery volume to increase the charge capacity and thus driving range.

This is a much easier way to increase vehicle range than re-engineering all the material in the vehicle.

Dio, I have to intervene again. Sorry. But you are confusing battery capacity and anode capacity. The table you show and the argument you make only applies to the anode side of the battery, not the full battery. You are missing the cathode, current collector foils, separator, electrolyte and casing. In total a 2.2x charge capacity of the anode (in your table 30% Talnode-Si) would lead to somewhere between 10 to 20% reduction in weight at the cell level (I.e. not the battery pack, which includes electronics, power cables, cooling and battery body). That's because you still need the cathode and the other stuff at roughly the same amount. It's nothing to sniff at for sure but it's also not the magic bullet that you make it look like.
Another argument is, a battery contains roughly 1kg of graphite per kwh capacity. So if we have a large car battery of 100kwh, it contains about 100kg of graphite. You can't save 200kg of weight if you have only 100kg in the first place

 

[Diogenese]

Dio, I have to intervene again. Sorry. But you are confusing battery capacity and anode capacity. The table you show and the argument you make only applies to the anode side of the battery, not the full battery. You are missing the cathode, current collector foils, separator, electrolyte and casing. In total a 2.2x charge capacity of the anode (in your table 30% Talnode-Si) would lead to somewhere between 10 to 20% reduction in weight at the cell level (I.e. not the battery pack, which includes electronics, power cables, cooling and battery body). That's because you still need the cathode and the other stuff at roughly the same amount. It's nothing to sniff at for sure but it's also not the magic bullet that you make it look like.
Another argument is, a battery contains roughly 1kg of graphite per kwh capacity. So if we have a large car battery of 100kwh, it contains about 100kg of graphite. You can't save 200kg of weight if you have only 100kg in the first place

Thanks Semmel,

Short term memory failure ...

and I haven't had a drink yet!

Mark said that Talnode-Si has 5 times the charge capacity of graphite.

The anode volume can be decreased as shown in the following table:

T-Si Fraction	Capacity Multiplier	Constant charge capacity anode volume
0	1	1.00
0.1	1.4	0.71
0.2	1.8	0.56
0.3	2.2	0.45
0.4	2.6	0.38
0.5	3	0.33
0.6	3.4	0.29
0.7	3.8	0.26
0.8	4.2	0.24
0.9	4.6	0.22
1	5	0.20

 

[Diogenese]

Thanks Semmel,

Short term memory failure ...

and I haven't had a drink yet!

Mark said that Talnode-Si has 5 times the charge capacity of graphite.

The anode volume can be decreased as shown in the following table:

T-Si Fraction	Capacity Multiplier	Constant charge capacity anode volume
0	1	1.00
0.1	1.4	0.71
0.2	1.8	0.56
0.3	2.2	0.45
0.4	2.6	0.38
0.5	3	0.33
0.6	3.4	0.29
0.7	3.8	0.26
0.8	4.2	0.24
0.9	4.6	0.22
1	5	0.20

Hi @Semmel,

Mercedes claimed a 50% volume reduction and a 30% weight reduction for the battery of the EQXX using a Si anode.

https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/concept-cars/vision-eqxx-the-new-benchmark-of-effiency/

Instead of just making the battery bigger and thus heavier, the energy density has been significantly improved – to 200 Wh/kg to be precise. This enables the battery of the VISION EQXX to store 100 kWh, whilst taking up 50% less space and weighing 30% less than batteries with comparable capacity. State-of-the-art silicon anodes have been used in combination with ultra-lightweight materials from Formula One, for instance, which has significantly increased the battery capacity.

EQXX used Sila's silicon anode batteries.

https://www.silanano.com/press/pres...turing-of-its-next-generation-anode-materials

U.S. Department of Energy Awards Sila $100 Million to Scale Manufacturing of its Next-generation Anode Materials​

10.19.22
...
Sila’s proprietary silicon anode material is a replacement for current graphite material in Li-ion batteries and increases the energy density of batteries by 20%, without compromising cycle life, power, safety or other performance parameters. As automakers transition their fleets to electric, Sila’s drop-in replacement has the ability to boost overall battery performance while lowering battery cost per kWh, which is critical in meeting consumer expectations regarding cost, range, charge time, and acceleration. Sila materials will be crucial in achieving the ATVM Loan Program’s goal of improving the fuel economy of the US fleet through the accelerated adoption of electric vehicles.
Sila’s proprietary silicon anode material is a replacement for current graphite material in Li-ion batteries and increases the energy density of batteries by 20%, without compromising cycle life, power, safety or other performance parameters. As automakers transition their fleets to electric, Sila’s drop-in replacement has the ability to boost overall battery performance while lowering battery cost per kWh, which is critical in meeting consumer expectations regarding cost, range, charge time, and acceleration. Sila materials will be crucial in achieving the ATVM Loan Program’s goal of improving the fuel economy of the US fleet through the accelerated adoption of electric vehicles.

This is a Sila patent application for Si anodes:

US2023178711A1 ANODE ELECTRODE COMPOSITION OF LI-ION BATTERY CELL 20171019

a Li-ion battery cell comprises an anode electrode with an electrode coating that (1) comprises Si-comprising active material particles, (2) exhibits an areal capacity loading in the range of about 3 mAh/cm2 to about 12 mAh/cm2, (3) exhibits a volumetric capacity in the range from about 600 mAh/cc to about 1800 mAh/cc in a charged state of the cell, (4) comprises conductive additive material particles, and (5) comprises a polymer binder that is configured to bind the Si-comprising active material particles and the conductive additive material particles together to stabilize the anode electrode against volume expansion during the one or more charge-discharge cycles of the battery cell while maintaining the electrical connection between the metal current collector and the Si-comprising active material particles.

[0036] In case of Si-comprising (nano)composite anode powders, in some designs it may be particularly useful for the battery designs to use those with the specific capacity in the range from about 500 mAh/g to about 3000 mAh/g. In some designs, the specific capacity of such powders may range from about 600 mAh/g to about 2200 mAh/g in a de-lithiated state of a Li-ion battery operation. In some designs, a combination of graphite or graphite-like carbon active material particles with Si-comprising particles (including various silicon-based composites, silicon oxides, silicon nitrides, silicon phosphides, silicon hydrides, silicon alloys, etc., which may in some designs be coated with a conductive carbon layer or comprise conductive carbon in their composition and which may in some designs comprise polymer in their composition or comprise pores in their composition, etc.) may be used in the anode coating layer. In some designs, Si-comprising particles may experience from about 8 vol. % to about 180 vol. % during one or more charge-discharge cycles of the battery operation.

Mercedes have demonstrated that significant weight and volume advantages can be obtained by using such Si-doped anodes. Interestingly, they talk about 20% energy density increase without affecting recharge ability, but it looks like EQXX had a much higher Si load to enable 50% volume reduction while still getting 1000 km. I wonder if they used disposable batteries?

 

[teilenswert]

 

[cosors]

@Semmel
I would be very happy to receive another of your thoughtful summaries. Unfortunately, I don't understand everything or every detail. I've only been practising my English more intensively since I joined TSE, you know.
I can see that here very prominently:

...Ferrari

 

[Diogenese]

@Semmel
I would be very happy to receive another of your thoughtful summaries. Unfortunately, I don't understand everything or every detail. I've only been practising my English more intensively since I joined TSE, you know.
I can see that here very prominently:
View attachment 62124
...Ferrari

Now there's a use case for the 100% Talnode-Si!

 

[Semmel]

@Semmel
I would be very happy to receive another of your thoughtful summaries. Unfortunately, I don't understand everything or every detail. I've only been practising my English more intensively since I joined TSE, you know.
I can see that here very prominently:
View attachment 62124
...Ferrari

I dont think there was much in the details to decypher. Mark did a pretty good job in laying out the main points clearly. I dont think going through this for 2 hours (1h listening, at least one additional hour writing) is going to give you much. Youtube adds auto generated subtitles that can give you an edge if that helps (sometimes they are plain wrong though). The main points I remember from listening to it yesterday:

1. We are waiting for the court. We discussed this already
2. Nyobium stuff is too expensive for mass market, but it might work for special applications
3. Talnode-SI can use other graphite sources, but it sounds like they dont want to use other sources (speculation)
4. Mark favors expansion to the max of the resource without messing around with more steps would be the way to go after the initial Niska expansion. Watch the drill program.
5. The Tesla Model S car was made from the cut off corners of the 7T 20-sided graphite orb because the guy had a 6 axis milling machine. The articles in the background of his office are just cool things and have no meaning (of course he would say that!)
6. Cash burn of the last quarter was elevated (he didnt say why). So expect cas available for more than the stated 2.4 quarters.

There might be other points that I dont remember

 

[Semmel]

Hi @Semmel,

Mercedes claimed a 50% volume reduction and a 30% weight reduction for the battery of the EQXX using a Si anode.

https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/concept-cars/vision-eqxx-the-new-benchmark-of-effiency/

Instead of just making the battery bigger and thus heavier, the energy density has been significantly improved – to 200 Wh/kg to be precise. This enables the battery of the VISION EQXX to store 100 kWh, whilst taking up 50% less space and weighing 30% less than batteries with comparable capacity. State-of-the-art silicon anodes have been used in combination with ultra-lightweight materials from Formula One, for instance, which has significantly increased the battery capacity.

EQXX used Sila's silicon anode batteries.

https://www.silanano.com/press/pres...turing-of-its-next-generation-anode-materials

U.S. Department of Energy Awards Sila $100 Million to Scale Manufacturing of its Next-generation Anode Materials​

10.19.22
...
Sila’s proprietary silicon anode material is a replacement for current graphite material in Li-ion batteries and increases the energy density of batteries by 20%, without compromising cycle life, power, safety or other performance parameters. As automakers transition their fleets to electric, Sila’s drop-in replacement has the ability to boost overall battery performance while lowering battery cost per kWh, which is critical in meeting consumer expectations regarding cost, range, charge time, and acceleration. Sila materials will be crucial in achieving the ATVM Loan Program’s goal of improving the fuel economy of the US fleet through the accelerated adoption of electric vehicles.
Sila’s proprietary silicon anode material is a replacement for current graphite material in Li-ion batteries and increases the energy density of batteries by 20%, without compromising cycle life, power, safety or other performance parameters. As automakers transition their fleets to electric, Sila’s drop-in replacement has the ability to boost overall battery performance while lowering battery cost per kWh, which is critical in meeting consumer expectations regarding cost, range, charge time, and acceleration. Sila materials will be crucial in achieving the ATVM Loan Program’s goal of improving the fuel economy of the US fleet through the accelerated adoption of electric vehicles.

This is a Sila patent application for Si anodes:

US2023178711A1 ANODE ELECTRODE COMPOSITION OF LI-ION BATTERY CELL 20171019

View attachment 62109

a Li-ion battery cell comprises an anode electrode with an electrode coating that (1) comprises Si-comprising active material particles, (2) exhibits an areal capacity loading in the range of about 3 mAh/cm2 to about 12 mAh/cm2, (3) exhibits a volumetric capacity in the range from about 600 mAh/cc to about 1800 mAh/cc in a charged state of the cell, (4) comprises conductive additive material particles, and (5) comprises a polymer binder that is configured to bind the Si-comprising active material particles and the conductive additive material particles together to stabilize the anode electrode against volume expansion during the one or more charge-discharge cycles of the battery cell while maintaining the electrical connection between the metal current collector and the Si-comprising active material particles.

[0036] In case of Si-comprising (nano)composite anode powders, in some designs it may be particularly useful for the battery designs to use those with the specific capacity in the range from about 500 mAh/g to about 3000 mAh/g. In some designs, the specific capacity of such powders may range from about 600 mAh/g to about 2200 mAh/g in a de-lithiated state of a Li-ion battery operation. In some designs, a combination of graphite or graphite-like carbon active material particles with Si-comprising particles (including various silicon-based composites, silicon oxides, silicon nitrides, silicon phosphides, silicon hydrides, silicon alloys, etc., which may in some designs be coated with a conductive carbon layer or comprise conductive carbon in their composition and which may in some designs comprise polymer in their composition or comprise pores in their composition, etc.) may be used in the anode coating layer. In some designs, Si-comprising particles may experience from about 8 vol. % to about 180 vol. % during one or more charge-discharge cycles of the battery operation.

Mercedes have demonstrated that significant weight and volume advantages can be obtained by using such Si-doped anodes. Interestingly, they talk about 20% energy density increase without affecting recharge ability, but it looks like EQXX had a much higher Si load to enable 50% volume reduction while still getting 1000 km. I wonder if they used disposable batteries?

Yes, there is no doubt that you can build batteries with a high silicon content. The numbers stated here (increase of overall battery energy density by 20%) sounds about right for a moderate to high silicon doping. I find it surprising that it also is supposed to be cheaper and have no impact on cycle life.

The statement for EQXX though, which might be unrelated to the quited US Department part, sounds a bit too much though. A 50% volume decrease and 30% weight reduction would indicate a 50% or higher silicon anode. As you say, the question is, if this is really a customer usable battery or if it only sustains a hand full of cycles. There is very likely a catch that they dont tell us.

 

[Semmel]

Now there's a use case for the 100% Talnode-Si!

Not if you want to charge it more than 10 times But seriously, no idea. the 100% Talnode-Si, which it self is 50% graphite, 50% silicon, might not have the cycle life you expect from a car. Silicon still swells, no matter the particle. And with such a high doping, you would need a battery that can physically 'breath'. Thats quite a challenge. I will remain at a "show be" stance before I beleave this is real and useful.

 

[teilenswert]

There was quite an

I dont think there was much in the details to decypher. Mark did a pretty good job in laying out the main points clearly. I dont think going through this for 2 hours (1h listening, at least one additional hour writing) is going to give you much. Youtube adds auto generated subtitles that can give you an edge if that helps (sometimes they are plain wrong though). The main points I remember from listening to it yesterday:

1. We are waiting for the court. We discussed this already
2. Nyobium stuff is too expensive for mass market, but it might work for special applications
3. Talnode-SI can use other graphite sources, but it sounds like they dont want to use other sources (speculation)
4. Mark favors expansion to the max of the resource without messing around with more steps would be the way to go after the initial Niska expansion. Watch the drill program.
5. The Tesla Model S car was made from the cut off corners of the 7T 20-sided graphite orb because the guy had a 6 axis milling machine. The articles in the background of his office are just cool things and have no meaning (of course he would say that!)
6. Cash burn of the last quarter was elevated (he didnt say why). So expect cas available for more than the stated 2.4 quarters.

There might be other points that I dont remember

There was quite a good, extensive summary by Edmorgrimm at the other forum. I assume it's okay for him to repost it here:


"LONG POST AHEAD.

So I watched the recording, and made the following summary. I like to do these as I feel it might not only help other shareholders, but also helps remind me of why I'm holding this stock which is currently my only negative position, and also the one I have sunk a significant amount of cash into, relative to my means.

Anything in "quotes" is straight from MT's mouth, or straight from the slides, the rest is paraphrased. Hopefully folk find it useful, a lot has already been mentioned on other threads, apologies for repeating what has been covered elsewhere.

- Point was made that global EV sales 2023 vs. 2022 were up 32%. The world continues down the road of electrification. It’s not all passenger cars, its trucks, busses, ferries etc, plus the stationary storage market. It’s a continued shift. Retail numbers may go up and down, but there’s a general uptrend in electrification, globally.

-MT reiterated that given recent events in the Suez, the Red Sea, increasing shipping costs, and geopolitical risks, the fact that TLG has direct road and rail access to Europe is a huge advantage.

-The refinery design has been altered to; reduce energy consumption by a quarter, reduce the footprint of the building (enabling greater room for future expansion), and the equipment design has been also been modified, to, quote “specifically [be] configured for various customers that were working with on the offtakes”.

-MT reiterated that a LOI had been signed with the Lulea Municipality for an option to expand the size of the refinery site. The desire to have the option to expand the site was “Driven by customer project demand”.

-Regarding financing, an application for 70 million EU grant has been applied for, as well as other types of state aid. TLG is “..in discussion with potential equity partners including automotive OEMs”. Interesting.

-MT spent a lot of time spruiking the recycling flow process that TLG’s tech is capable of achieving. Bit beyond me, but he’s clearly excited, and did stress it’s an extra revenue stream in the making.

-Graphene additives. New product a few years in the making was announced recently. Made in collaboration with “..our customer, who is a global leading player in what it makes, these rubber products.. very very large volume products. Not only that, the rubber market itself very large, everything from belts, to car tyres, to seals and gaskets and hoses. Large volume applications.” TLG’s graphene rubber additive can add strength, conductivity, flexibility or longevity, depending on the need. Small sales at the moment, but shows potential. Again, very interesting IMO.

-Aero lithium project. 'Partnership discussions progressing’. I think the language here has changed from ‘discussions ongoing’, would have to double check that.

-MT reiterated that the TLG mine appeals case has not been reviewed by the SC yet. Backlog blamed. TLG is requesting a ‘push up’ in the queue. TLG doing everything that can be done whilst being respectful of the fact that this is not a government department- it’s the highest court in Sweden. “We’re all frustrated, you can’t … you know… it’s hard for people to believe the process works this way. However, it is a process, it’s not due to a conflict of our project” .. “It’s excruciating for you, our shareholders, it’s excruciating for us .. but we just have to handle it in the most professional way we can.” MT seemed again, very confident the decision would be in TLG's favour.

-The planning injunction against the mine lodged by the local municipality seemed to have just annoyed MT. He was straightforward about going to the national government to circumvent the local govt who “..for personal or political reasons have tried delaying things and squeezing things”. MT seemed very comfortable with going to the national government to move forward, he did not seem worried in the slightest.

-Talnode Si. (50% silicone 50% graphite/graphene) sold as additive. Boosts energy density by 5x. Market for these additives large and growing. TLG has developed a commercially competitive product (competing with China).

-Expansion plans. The plans TLG had for the resource in northern Sweden of 19,000tn/year of anode (Stage 1) was the beginning. The Stage 2 plans in place to increase to 100,000tn/year (that were initially considered “wildly too big”) are now looking too small. MT asks would 500,000tn be enough? The market is growing into the millions of tonnes of anode required… It’s lucky that TLG’s resource is “..open at depth and along strike”. MT says they are now considering ‘Stage 3’, where they define the (giant) resource more accurately, and “..explore the potential of that more from the ground up, rather than from the market down”. The market will soon be requiring more than 3,000,000 tonnes for anode alone, aside from other graphite uses.

- Regarding continued growth (“We will grow for ten years”), MT stressed the desire to get cash back to shareholders, and definitely seek strategic partners for the kind of long-term, large scale expansion mentioned above, and not take the funds out of early cashflow. I have to say, this was nice to hear the MD be explicit about this.

- Question about TLG would protect itself from a takeover? MT stated that there are some built-in defence mechanisms and processes in place within the company around how to handle various takeover scenarios. Also, the share register has some ‘buffers’ there, MT himself and a number of other ‘friendly parties’; Mark Creasy (Yandal), Anthony Holman, Graham Morton, as well as institutional investors such as Pentwater Capital. These people/groups didn’t get into TLG business for what it looks like now, they got into it for what it will become.

-TLG is “of course” applying for Strategic Project status for the CRMA.

-US market listing? “Probably in time”. No urgency. When/if it makes commercial sense. Doesn’t add anything right now.

- The graphite car in the background is based on a Tesla. Nothing significant, other than to show off the quality of the graphite TLG has. He held up a number of other samples of graphite flake from China, Africa, and Ukraine. All looked like various shades of green/grey/brown rocks, TLG’s looked pure black.With the above reality check regarding the Tesla in mind, I did notice the Ferrari book positioned prominently on the shelf behind MT. Ohhh how sweet would that be...

GLA."

 

[Diogenese]

Not if you want to charge it more than 10 times But seriously, no idea. the 100% Talnode-Si, which it self is 50% graphite, 50% silicon, might not have the cycle life you expect from a car. Silicon still swells, no matter the particle. And with such a high doping, you would need a battery that can physically 'breath'. Thats quite a challenge. I will remain at a "show be" stance before I beleave this is real and useful.

Mah! If you can afford a Ferrari, you just buy a six-pack and drop them in as required.

 

[mpk1980]

Is that a 4680 cell on its side?

 

[cosors]

I feel personally addressed. He says tschüß at the end!

 

[cosors]

Aero lithium project. 'Partnership discussions progressing’. I think the language here has changed from ‘discussions ongoing’, would have to double check that.

I'll throw my speculation bubble into the ring as it doesn't seem important to me and if I'm wrong nothing is lost. Maybe it's Keliber, which is a subsidiary of Sibanye Stillwater. We are working with them on a HORIZON project that deals with mapping deposits, at least I think they are both part of it, and they are also very interested in lithium. And like Talga, they are also working with Rejlers.
I wouldn't care if I were completely wrong.

Collaboration Network | Data Visualisation | CORDIS | European Commission

CORDIS provides information on all EU-supported R&D activities, including programs (HE, H2020, FP7 and older), projects, results, publications...

cordis.europa.eu

Sibanye-Stillwater | About Lithium

Lithium and its compounds have been used in the manufacture of high-temperature lubricants, high strength-to-weight alloys, heat-resistant glass and ceramics

www.sibanyestillwater.com

"Rejlers has signed an agreement with Sibanye-Stillwater's Keliber lithium project.
...
The Keliber lithium refinery will be built in Kokkola in Central Ostrobothnia with the aim of being the first European producer of battery-grade lithium hydroxide from its own mined ore reserves. Lithium is an essential part of storing electrical energy, including batteries for electric vehicle. The total investment in the Keliber lithium project is estimated to be EUR 656 million."

Rejlers Signs an Agreement with Sibanye-Stillwater?s Keliber Lithium Project

Rejlers has signed an agreement with Sibanye-Stillwater?s Keliber lithium project. The agreement includes basic and detail engineering services for the effluent treatment plant of the Keliber lithium...

in.marketscreener.com

Kokkola is virtually opposite, the same region in Europe.

Distance between Aero lithium project to Kokkola/Keliber

Exploration Information System

Exploration Information System | EIS Project | Fact Sheet | HORIZON | CORDIS | European Commission

Exploration Information System (EIS) proposal has been compiled by a consortium, which consists of 17 partners from leading researchinstitutes (4), academia (5), service providers (4) and industry (4). The consortium members come from six European Union member states (FI, FR...

cordis.europa.eu

Talga AB also has a research connection with Deutsche or ZINNWALD Lithium, perhaps about the same project.

Zinnwald Lithium, producer of battery-grade lithium hydroxide

Zinnwald Lithium - a leading domestic supplier to the European battery industry with decades of global mining and chemical industry expertise

zinnwaldlithium.com

But it would fit better with Keliber I think because of their region. Incidentally, Finland is luring frustrated companies away from Sweden.)